Caste system caste issue flourishing culture Swami Gopalsharan Debacharyaji of Vrindavan Stockton Middlesbrough Newcastle Narayan Sheela Middlesbrough Delhi Cambay Calcutta North Tees hospital Calcutta Medical College Presidency college Tamluk railway school mix-cultured neighbor Kharagpur physical instruction Madras Coomila Satmora Dhaka 8th January, 2004 Sound Sound Cassette English Abhijeet Joshi Oral Interview Interview 026 Sushmita Ray Female Kharagpur

Medicine from Calcutta Medical College EN English Bengali Interviewer: I would just like to start of with, if you could tell me a little bit about your family background and specially where were your parents born? Sushmita Ray: Yeah. My parents were born in East Bengal that time it was, my father was born in Dhaka, East Bengal, and my mother was born in a village called Satmora, it is in Coomila and but my father studied school, he did schooling in Dhaka but, came back for university at Calcutta and he did his graduation from Calcutta and went to Madras, south of India to do his the you know, he was a physical instructor, so he did the physical instruction training in, post graduate training in Madras. And they came back and working in a school as a teacher, but he was not only the physical instructor he was teaching you know other subject as well you know there. And my mom was a housewife so she has, she was in the village so has not done really the school, done the schooling early age but not gone to the, done any degree or anything. But she was a very-very, you know she always liked reading and she writes lot still she is about eighty five now, still writes you know, yeah she, she has got a natural knack of you know writing so she has written, not the book, like a, you know like a diary, but it is like a story of everybodys life, who had she met and everything so she has got a quite a few diary and she has given me one diary as well. She writes poem, also collect the big quotation from the others and then explain it you know so lovely. Interviewer: Okay, so where were you born then? Sushmita Ray: I was born in India in West Bengal, place called Kharagpur, I was born, it is a West Bengal. Interviewer: So can you tell me a little about life, where you were born was it a town, or village or? Sushmita Ray: It is a town, big town rather industrial town. So we have got a cosmopolitan in all the other, not religion, mostly other culture was there like UP, Punjab, you know our neighbors were you know it is a mix-cultured neighbor. Interviewer: And then what are your memories of being a child growing up there you got any stories, or any, how was it like? Sushmita Ray: Oh they have wonderful life you know, cant think anything bad about it. It was pretty nice you know the lots of, we were quite a few brother and sister but we had a good you know nurturing and upbringing was quite good so. Interviewer: You went to school yeah? Sushmita Ray: Yeah, we went to school in Kharagpur, it was a railway school where my father was working but he was working the boys school so we went to the girls school and then when my father retired actually my we were the quite old age child of my fathers, you know because are sisters and they are quite grown up you know. Then we moved to another town called Tamluk it is a West Bengal town, where my father got a job as a lecturer in college and after retirement of this job you know so and we were studying there in that school. After finishing the schooling we went to the, I went to the university first the Presidency college, which is a famous college did my pre university year, then went to the medical college, Calcutta Medical College done the medicine. Interviewer: Okay, and how far did you take the medical career then? Sushmita Ray: I did graduation then got married within one year after graduation and then we went to different part of India to work in a company you know and then came back to this country in 1973. Interviewer: You came here 1973; so how many years did you be married by the time you moved? Sushmita Ray: I married 67 November so, sixty, sixty-nine, seventy-two, five years. Interviewer: Okay, and what was your reason then for moving to the U.K? Sushmita Ray: Actually we never thought because we were quite happy where we are working, because he was in charge of the whole company, you know the medical part and I was the his assistant, you know I was working as a lady medical officer, he was the male and quite happy but that is the destiny, somebody, we had a very good friend you know and he was, he has done the Ph. D from here and he said, Why are you here, you should go and do your post graduation there because I have done and I am quite happy, you should go for post graduation. And we said well, we did not go early, you know because we are already settled here so, he said Go, go, go I have got ten pounds with me so apply for the job I will give you that ten pounds to you for, that time it was charging three pounds each you know for applying for job here. So we send this money, almost he said you know go and we just applied and we did not had to wait for you know the job, he got the placement first and three months later I came and I got a placement as well in North Tees hospital yeah. Interviewer: So did you fly over on your own then? Sushmita Ray: I flew, by that time I had a daughter born yeah so, in 71 she was born in while we were working you know and he came 72 and six, three months later I came, three or four months yeah, later I came with my, but I flew with my daughter. Interviewer: Yeah and what was that like for you, travel, leaving your home country and coming to a whole new place, what was that like? Sushmita Ray: It was bit strenuous, not only that because when I moved from that where we were working in Cambay, far away from home in Gujarat, we were working and I had a you know, we had a lovely quarter and all that, everything was there and he just came leaving everything on me, so I had to pack a you know those things and send home, I mean you know, our home in Calcutta and then my mother-in-law was with me as well so moved altogether to Calcutta with my baby and then came to Delhi with the baby it was very strenuous also but again also leaving everybody it was, the strain was in that sense, you know, always it is you know when you leave your own people, but again I was coming, he was here so our family would be here so. Interviewer: What are your first memories then of arriving in Britain, and did you come in the summer or the winter or what time was that? Sushmita Ray: Came in the April so it was just you know border but it was nice memory in a sense, because he, I did not have to do after that, anything, because he came to the airport to take me and then he earned three months money, so he gave me all his you know money to spend so we went to London shopping and spend money and so quite and then came to North Tees, and it is a beautiful you know, the quarter and everything and people were very nice, that time, I must say it has changed lot since then but and we had a quite a lovely start too, you know, so I did. Then problem start between the child minder you know because I had to go to work and child minder yeah, so there was some teething problem to start with to get one but we ultimately we got one, she was quite reliable, first one was not, she stole our quite a few things you know, but in the hospital, but we did not call police or anything just give her warning because she was quite young girl, so we said never do that again, so then we get a proper nanny you know, and she was alright, then my sister came and then his mother came in year later so two years you know that was it. Interviewer: And where were you working then? Sushmita Ray: In North Tees general hospital. Interviewer: You were actually working in the hospital. Sushmita Ray: North Tees, yeah. Then we moved quite a bit you know, every two years we had to move our job, but anyway that time though we have got a very-very busy job, I did Gyn/Obs studies and he was doing medicine we both were really-really busy, but even then compared to now, they always complained that seventy-two hours, we were on call from Friday to Monday evening you know continuous. But again I could come home, you know because within the compound our quarter is and the sister anything was so nice, says go and do this thing and if there is emergency we will call you back, so we can just go immediately. So that was, even we have to go at night you know for three nights Gyn/Obs was very busy, but it was, still I have not got bad memories for that you know because it was always helpful, the sister you know in the hospital, other doctors, colleague was quite helpful so. Interviewer: What was it like with regard to socializing or making friends or was there already like a Hindu community that you could tap into or what was that like? Sushmita Ray: We have got loads of our community there because they were all working around Middlesbrough and in North Tees, but again we have got the you know the English friends as well who are working with us, colleague you know, but as a social things we are mostly meeting together Indians and Pakistan, lots of Pakistanis as well there you know, so we had a all the gathering and everything we were doing yeah. Never missed so much because it was the seventies you know, but my sister one of my you know his sister came in fifties she missed lot you know but we didnt because we have got loads of friends around so. And at that time religion was not so, because I always had a my own temple in my house always, I was always carrying my because my mother-in-law gave me her, you know the things that Narayan Sheela, you know the Narayan Sheela, the special things for the pooja, she already gave me, say that you just carry on the family thing so, it was always with me so I have always my temple with me in my house always, yeah. And not all my friend, you know they are, they were not bothered about the religion at all you know but we always did, always had that things in our you know house, always had a small temple. Interviewer: What about celebrating religious festivals and things like that? Sushmita Ray: Christmas we always you know enjoyed because of, the hospital there was a party and everything, then we went in Puja that time was very, only in London you know so we had to go to London for one day, we will drive from here to London come back next day you know. Durga Puja, yeah, that is the big festival of Bengal you know so Durga Puja. But other Puja, there was no temple nothing around you know, the first temple opened in Newcastle the Krishna temple in 1984, you know so that is the first time we went to the,80 no 84 we take the diksha sorry, it was 82. Interviewer: And what was it like just getting basic things for doing Puja or for getting spices for cooking or? Sushmita Ray: No problem because there was a. Interviewer: I believe there were shops already or? Sushmita Ray: Yeah it was in Middlesbrough and Stockton you know we are in North Tees it was, Stockton they had a shop it was lovely you just phone them, what you need and they usually bring their van and you know supply at your door. So it was you know not much struggle, struggle we faced actually, I faced the struggle when we came here you know he was quite ill with his you know heart attack and I was with the two children and he was not sure about the job you know whether he would continue or you know then I had my full time job and then again I have got a good nanny in you know old lady who was looking after them from since we have come here and she was looking after my, then my mother-in-law came again for a year and my sister came again so you know for a one year and the nanny somehow we managed alright so that was the bad patch but gone through alright. Interviewer: Now I want to just ask you a few things about your own you know religious practices of Hinduism and things like that, what are your like on day-to-day basis or on a weekly basis do you have any routine day practice or? Sushmita Ray: We have got a very much routine. Interviewer: What do you do? Sushmita Ray: Yeah, every morning we got up and, usually we are supposed to have the bath but I usually do the bath at the night you know because that is a long time habit now since we have come here and then in the morning just change the clothes after you know washing, change the clothes, wear the fresh clothes for Pooja and we have got a Pooja room, you know, so we sit there do our job, because we are, we have taken the oath, you know diksha so we do our job about half an hour to forty minutes then do the Pooja means bit of rituals you know that worshipping, giving the prasad to bhog to God, everyday fruits and then we get down and have our breakfast and go out so it is a. Interviewer: And do you go to temple regularly or do you? Sushmita Ray: No, only occasionally like you know the janmashtami or you know if anything big happenings then go to the, there is a two temple, Middlesbrough and Newcastle. But we have got a guruji, you know we had diksha, so guruji when comes so mostly when he comes then we, if he does anything in the temple then we definitely go there, otherwise he usually comes here you know and we make a satsang you know call other people and they come. Interviewer: Who is your guru? Sushmita Ray: Hmm? Interviewer: What is your gurus name? Sushmita Ray: Gurus name Swami Gopalsharan Debacharyaji of Vrindavan. Interviewer: Oh, okay, and do you have a like a family, a traditional family Murti that you worship, you know that comes down in tradition? Sushmita Ray: Yeah, we have got a family Murti not, we have got Radha Krishna of course the things and we have got Narayan sheela from families you know, it has come, from my mother-in-law, somebody gave to my mother-in-law, so Narayan sheela has to have that bath everyday and you know the put, so that is the family part and of course I have got, I can take you to my temple you know all that, all the things are there. Interviewer: What are your beliefs then because you have told me about your practices, but your actual beliefs that actually make you a Hindu, your morals and what are they? Sushmita Ray: Morals is, it is likely more like a philosophy you know to feel good, to do good to others you know and keep, purify yourself you know that is the main thing from your own mind and body you know too. Interviewer: Okay and then, what do you see then as, it is quite a general question but you can answer how you like, you are doing all these practices but what do you see then will happen at the end, what is your idea of? Sushmita Ray: What you mean that? Interviewer: What happens after death. Sushmita Ray: I do not know, it depends on, I cannot judge myself you know, so if I have done something good, I feel that I will have a good reincarnation or anything you know. I will have a further better life you know, not in essence of monetary or thing like but better life in a sense you know, better peaceful life and. Interviewer: And how do you give this knowledge then or this knowledge onto your children and pass on the Hindu culture how do you go about doing that? Sushmita Ray: Actually my son and daughter all are quite you know involved with that you know they do also the diksha, but it is difficult to explain that you know, how do I pass this thing to our children or anything, it is just that the way of life you know what we are doing it is not only that doing the rituals or anything it is that way of, like you are trying to teach something do better or raise yourself you know out and so children, they do not believe in some rituals or anything you know. They dont do, not many rituals you know thing like that, but of course they follow the, that Hindu philosophy. Interviewer: Okay, and do they speak your, what is your language? Sushmita Ray: My speech, language sorry. Interviewer: Mother tongue. Sushmita Ray: Mother tongue is Bengali. Interviewer: Bengali. Sushmita Ray: Yeah. Interviewer: And do your children speak Bengali? Sushmita Ray: Yeah they can speak very well, both of them because we have taught them and my son can write as well and, but my daughter, I taught her but you know then she cannot write you know now but, because she has not practiced it for ages but she can fluently the Bengali and my grandchild now, she is married, married to a Irish boy actually my daughter but, she can speak Bengali as well. Interviewer: Really. Sushmita Ray: Just you know few words you know, she says Kamonacho. Interviewer: And why do you think it is so important then for them to learn Bengali? Sushmita Ray: No it is because it is our, what root and culture and we have got so much flourishing culture in Bengal, you know the literature also the religious part as well and social you know music, you know so many things you know, very highly cultured you know Bengal culture is. And also if you know a bit more India you will find most of the educated and cultured people actually originated from Bengal you know. Even the freedom fighter you know, but the British you know divided, all this originated from the Bengal all this Subhash Bose and Ashutosh Mukherjee and all the big name you know, everybody, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, you know so all they are all Bengali. Its quite a flourished you know culture. Interviewer: So it is important for them to learn their language so they continue all this. Sushmita Ray: Their language and then, so that because without language you know, you cannot just communicate or understand the things you know. Even if they go back, if you do not understand language how could you expect to communicate each other you know, so you have to learn the basic things you know, then you can communicate and understand part of it and you know. But one thing I never forced them to do that you know, it is just natural way they have learnt because we were following this and they did as well so you know, yeah. Interviewer: Okay, I just want to ask you a couple of general question and you know your thinking on things, do you think the youth of today, do you think that they are more or less religious than when you were a youth? Sushmita Ray: I think because it is a peculiar thing you get more and more religious in a sense you go more deeper when you get older okay, in religious sense, you feel something inside you know, but as guruji says that in here, he feels that we people are more religious than back home, he says. Interviewer: In the U.K? Sushmita Ray: Yeah, in U.K Hindu community or his disciple or anything he feels that, we are more religious than you know most of there, we cannot say because India is such a big you know country but he feels that we are more religious you know or practicing religion than back home? Interviewer: Why do you think that is? Sushmita Ray: I dont know because, he says always isnt it. Speaker 2: I will answer that question. Interviewer: Well you can keep the fear into you. Sushmita Ray: Yeah he is, he can answer better because he reads lots and he can answer better I, I am a basic person so what I am. Interviewer: Thats okay. Sushmita Ray: My opinion I have said, yeah. Interviewer: Okay, do you think the caste issue or the caste system is still an issue today, both here and in India do you think thats still around? Sushmita Ray: Caste system is not here, so much, no, but in back home, yes I think still but not so much as it was before in about few years ago, it is getting better. But again you know if you think the if you say the caste the caste system that means we can see the same here as well, you know, not the caste but the job social system, you know, who are doing the suppose taking the, compare that somebody is working at your home okay, the builder or thing like that, we always ask them to come in give them food or anything but none of the neighbor give them you know may be cup of coffee or thing but outside or anything, you know not let them in or let them let them sit on the table, their table you know but we always ask them you know come down and have a cup of tea and sit there you know have a rest or anything. So, this is there you know, it is always there in this social system is there but in India oppose that you know the caste system develop for the social reason you know because who is cleaning there the harijan you know cleaning the things so they had that work in dirty thing so you know people would not like so, but it is still there you know that you cannot who was cleaning the outside drain or anything, you do not invite them inside home because they are not clean anyway. So, but as such if that lady or man come with a clean clothes or everything in the evening had a good bath and come back, so they can come in and you know sit inside. So at least in our house there was not much and not in their house as well, not much so much, caste as such you know system but of course we do not allow them when they are dirty but you know later on when they come they can come in and you know so. Interviewer: Okay, and just a couple of final questions then, if somebody was to ask you, you know, who are you or what is your identity now, because you have lived in the U.K for such a long time but you are also very Indian as well and thats so much of your identity, so what would you call yourself? Sushmita Ray: I would call myself Indian yeah I would say I am Indian and I am a Hindu, yes. Interviewer: And where would you say is home now? Sushmita Ray: Still feel home back to India, we have got, living here thirty-two years you know, yes you I have got, I do not know I never felt that you know like home, like I do not know what it is, not only me none of my friend or anything never felt that you know, that it is like home, I do not know, what it is but. Interviewer: Okay, and finally then do you have any final thought or message that you can give to people who will be listening to this in the future, could be anybody doing some research or could be future generations or anybody wanting to find out about their family, just some final thought? Sushmita Ray: Yes, right, do your job, be honest and you know be you, you know, thats all. Interviewer: Okay, thank you very much.