mother tongue, Reincarnation, Karma, relations with other communities, social events 9th March, 2004 sound Sound Cassette English Abhijeet Joshi Oral Interview Interview 041 Hansa Morjaria Female Kampala, Uganda

Leicester U.K. Like typing skills and secretarial studies ,Wigston college AND Cambridge certificate 'O' levels equivalent to the GCSC level EN Gujarati, Hindi, English I would just like to start off the interview with some of your family history and your background. Just really trying to get an idea of where you are coming from and could you tell me where your parents were born? My father was born in India and my mother in Uganda. Do you know the names of the towns? My father comes from a town called Begam which is near Porbandar, the birth place of Gandhiji and --- Okay, that's in Gujarat That's in Gujarat and my mother in Uganda, again a small village called Namandwa. Okay and how did your mother, how her, did her family end up in Africa, do you know, where, what point did they move over there? My grandfather moved from India at a very young age with his family and friends and they settled in the same village. So they were very established there by that time. And then what about your father, how did they get together then? Had your father, already immigrated to Africa before marriage or? Yeah, my father was twelve when he actually went to Africa and that's when they were sort of building the railway and you know there was opportunities. So he went there and, Did he go with his family? No, he was the first one in the family to go there actually. He was twelve. He was twelve. And then he actually fetched you know sort of one by one, his brothers followed. Did he tell you what it was like? He has talked about things like they used to live in a small village and the hardships and but he also talked about good things in his life. It's they, because they went as friends, there was that closeness as well of having somebody, you know from your own community and things and then because his brother followed, he had somebody with him there. So he didn't have any family or anything there when he arrived? No, he didn't. So he, was he, where was he? Was he in Kenya or? No he was in Uganda. In Uganda as well okay. So how did they get together, was it an arranged marriage or? Well obviously it was an arranged marriage. Obviously you know people, relatives and, who normally sit down to look at the family and you know they also look at the age, the age difference and it was arranged through my mom's uncle and my dad's friend. Came together. So what point then, in the whole equation, were you born? Like where were they living at the time and you know, what was the? Well my father was actually living in Kampala, the capital of Uganda and he was working there. And so my mom, obviously after marriage, she came to Kampala. And I was born three years after their marriage and my mom was only I think 17 when I was born. Well, so she was very younger when she got married. She was very young and she had lost her mother as well obviously, at the age of seven so she didn't have anybody from her side of the family. She was brought up by her maternal uncle. Okay. What was your father's professional, you said he came to work in the railways, but was he still? That's right Was he still, when they got married, was he still working there or? No he had at then started to work with the Brewery called The Nile Breweries, and he was the manager there. Okay. So then you were born? What kind of you know, what kind of lifestyle they have there, than you were living in the city, did they have a house, an apartment or? Yeah it was a five-storey building and I could distinctly remember a few things of that. We were on the fifth storey, it was a large, a three bedrooms apartment. And then did you have other family members who lived nearby or? My father's relatives like Waterway in Ginger which is about I think 60 miles from Kampala and then his brother had settled in to Sugarcane plantation which was a small village. Wasn't a small village, in fact it became a large estate, which was about 70 miles from Kampala. And there were other relatives; my mom had a twin who actually came from Ambala to live in Kampala because we were there. So there was quite a lot of--- There were relatives and mom; my mom had lots of uncles and aunties. Okay. What was it like for you then, what are your memories of growing up? Well my memories of growing up. The first few years of my life I think, you know in Kampala I can remember is, we used to live across an open market and it was quite good because I quite, I had a sheltered life and, but because I was on my own, I didn't have a sort of a brother or sister before or after. I used to sort of move to see my cousins a lot because I was quiet feeling you know, that I needed company and things. I used to, during holidays we used to go away to Kakira or Ginger, where my cousins were, just spend a couple of months there and they, it was like a village like, which I appreciated more because we had the -- yeah, and with us living in the city you know, there were those hardships and obviously we didn't have a place to actually open and space to play. And then my mom had still her uncles in Namandwa village again there, we went away there, and that was a complete village where you could climb the trees and you know, you could just do what you wanted basically and you had cotton plantations and things growing in their gardens, those sort of the other things that I remember, the good ones. The good ones-- had you started school at that point? I started school at the age of seven. What kind of school was that? That was the All Kampala Primary school, which was an English medium school. And I mean it was a good school. I did my year seven there and then moved to a secondary school, which was like sort of next to, attached to this school. Was it a mixed school? That was a mixed school. Was that usual, you know or--- Yeah, I mean it was, you know there was nothing that was unusual about, because having mixed schools, mixed classes was an accepted part of the culture there. What about social events and things like that in Kampala like, either family festivals or you know religious festivals and things. How are they celebrated, were they celebrated in the home or in the temple or was there a temple or--- There were a few temples actually. There was a main temple, which was purposely built in the town, and there were smaller temples and where we sort of moved to later years of my life, there was a small temple that we were quite attached to. And my mom took a keen sort of part in sort of organizing the events there, taking part in like Navratri festivals and things like that. So those are the things that I distinctly can see you know, happening, sometimes when I sit down the temple, the statue of the goddess that was, the hill that we used to climb to go to the temple, and you know it was like because my aunty used to live right across the temple. So yeah it was like family oriented, friends you know, occasions that religious festival. The other thing was we also had Muslim neighbors and there were like, the followers of Aga Khan and we had friends you know, in that community, neighbors and I can also remember growing up with the Aga Khan followers and their daughters who were my friends. And there was no conflict? There was no conflict what so ever. It's like you know, the only you could tell of the difference in religion was like when we went to the temple and they went to the Khan. They celebrated our Diwali with us, we celebrated their Eid. There was exchange of presents and food and things like that. What about contact with the Black community in Uganda? What was it like, what were the relations like at that point before? The Black community, were like you know, the servants within the family. So every household hired a servant and that was a black and it was like norm, you know, we would have a household where you would have somebody and if they were like richer people, they will have more servants but like everybody sort of had one at least. And it was not seen as, you know as anything like different. Were you allowed to play with the Black like children or was that? Probably we weren't. But I tell you one thing, we had a girl come and work for ourselves and she was same age as me. Now deep down I used to feel that if I can have education, why can't she, why can't she be my friend. So we were sort of quite friendly with each other. I don't know how but that was seen from you know, other people's feel, but it was just when she came to us, we sort of be friends talk and I mean to be truthful there were times when servants were not treated the way they should have been. But with Rosy I can still remember her name, she used to, I used to give my clothes to her like and yeah I think, I sort of felt that she should be treated as a friend although she was our servant so we had good relationship. But within school, I can't remember, for the first few years having black children in our school. But as time went on, there were sort of coming into our schools as well. And was that seen as, at the time, was that seen as like a negative thing or what were they? Probably it was seen as a negative by our parents or you know the elderly, but by ourselves there wasn't any ambition towards you know, that at all. Okay and you said that you had moved, when you were talking about the temples that you have moved, where did you move to? Oh it's within the same city. It was just like we moved to different area because my mom sort of wanted to be close to her sister because my dad used to work away a lot as well. Okay. Now, I just want to move on now to asking you about the reasons for moving. At what point did you move to the U.K. and what were the reasons then be, behind it? My father of course held a British passport and there was something to do with like applying for the cultural artist to come here. If we didn't apply for the citizenship to be Ugandan citizen, you would have to have a work permit to work there. So my father did manage to get a few years work permit but then obviously, it's just about a few months before the 90 day notice that was given to the Ugandan Asians, and my father applied for a (inaudible) because he was refused work permit there. And obviously having a British passport and being a British citizen, that was the opportunity that he wanted to come over but within I think few months, it was like everybody had to leave anyway. They had to leave anyway. So at what point then, did you move during that 90 days or was it before that? Just before. No it was just, few months before, just a few months before. So what was it like, did he go first or did you have family here or what? No we all came together. Yeah my uncle had come before because the same, he used to have his own business in a small village and he came over. Obviously because they were living in a village, the education, it still wasn't you know, that good there and he had three children who he thought could do a better education. So they had, he had applied for a pass to come over and he had moved here a few months before we came actually. So we had somebody to come to and I think that was a time when people sort of, were feeling or they had an incline into something might happen. So people had started to sort of, come over but then it suddenly happened and there was an influx of the then Ugandan Asians who followed us. Okay. What was it like for yourself then, because how old were you? I was, I had just finished my Cambridge certificate 'O' levels equivalent to the GCSC level. So you were what 15 or 16? 16, I had just gone into 17. So you can remember quite a lot then, your place? Oh yes. I can. So what was it actually like then having to leave everything behind come to a whole new country? What were your expectations and you know? Gosh. It's, the thing is when I was there because obviously we were coming in to an age where you have finished your GCSC's and then moving on to college or further education. I can remember making an application to the Childs Fears School of Nursing here. I wanted to become a nurse, I wanted to come and study here. Not that I knew that it could have happened but it's just that you know, we were thinking and I did get a reply but then my father, one day says that we are going to having to leave, because he actually was given a notice of 70 days. But that was like personal, whereas the other one was like on a sort of a bigger scale. And we had to sort of make a decision. It was like I was sort of, I had finished my exam, I had a couple of months where I actually went and did some work because I had that gap before I could actually go into college. And it was like so sudden, that we were told we have to leave and so came here, we knew that we had a home to go to so we came on to my uncle, stayed there a few days. You know, it was, we just, I didn't have time to think really. Everything happened so suddenly and it was like, this is your new home and we came straight from to Leicester from Heathrow airport. What was the first day, you know, just the whole flight here and then arriving in the U.K. and looking around and oh my God? Oh my God. We came in June actually so the days were quite you know long and the weather was good as well. But what I didn't like was the, we came to a row of terraced houses and the corner shop and the taxi actually you know, sort of brought us there and then my aunty and uncle came there. They sort of lived in a terraced house and then they were telling us about the life here, and what we should be doing and should not be doing. And well it was. What did they mean by should or shouldn't do? Like you know how you, how the system because obviously, you don't have servants here. So you are supposed to do your own washing and your plates and you know, you were supposed to look after yourself basically, iron your own clothes and wash your own clothes and things like that. And because they were living on tight budget as well, there was some hardships that we had to sort of endeavor. But then they found us a rented accommodation, which we moved to. But there was some, that excitement as well coming in to England, because England was obviously, had a big name. But also we had good life in East Africa, obviously because I remember so much of it. It was like, I have lost my friends, but then I had one friend who had actually come to live in Leicester, she was already here and we were the best classmates. So I had her to sort of you know, known to. Known to. Known to, lean to. Well and obviously she as well didn't go for further education; she went to work like us went here and all that. It was like, you are coming to an age and you are sort of, was expected or even if it wasn't, it was like you know, that feeling of having to be a mature adult to say, right I need to go to work to support because my uncle, when we came, he said to us, everybody here has to go out to work. And he guided me straight to one of the factories that used to make typewriters, Imperial typewriter. It felt like every person who came from Uganda and settled in Leicester went to work for that factory. And obviously, they took them on as well, it was an American factory. And he sent me there, but the second week he took me to the job center and I was asked at the job center whether I wanted to study or wanted to work. And to me, because to go to study would be to be able to pay fees and I didn't, I knew that, my father can't afford that. So obviously the choice was, go to work. And so that's where, that's all I ended up working in to factory. But deep down, it was like I am not meant to work at a factory, there was that feeling so I did work there for a couple of years and then moved on. Then I sort of, found my way into part time learning and to get an office job as well. So what did, you studied at Charles King or you did at? Yeah, I did a course at Wigston college and it was like typing skills and secretarial studies. What was it like for your parents then as well coming and you know settling because I mean, younger people they you know, it's easier to adopt maybe. You kind of feel like a bit like, it's not fair but you can adapt maybe a little easier to a situation but for you know, your father and mother, you know leaving the lifestyle that they had and then all of a sudden back and having it to start again all over, I mean must have been difficult for them then also. Yeah my mom probably because she had not worked there and wasn't used to not having a servant and to start with she found it a bit difficult. Did she go out to work? And then she did. I think that was this excitement of woman going out to work. In fact she had never worn trousers and you know top in her life. But when she went out to work in a factory that was expected of them. And she did and she was quite proud of her. And she only worked until four, you know sort of time and but she did and I think she found that exciting and then having to manage at home as well. And it just happened that everybody sort of you know, got into the routine like you know, this was our lifestyle, it was to be so it was. Just get on with it and--- Yeah. And what about socially then in Leicester for your age group was, I mean everybody was busy working, but was there anything then, what did you do in the evenings or you know weekends or something, what was there to do? Like I said because there were lots of people who had actually, you know, Leicester was like a red area, people were not local, because in fact there were all banners put up and there was so much of, you know, opposition for people to come into Leicester. That was after we came, but we had some friends from Kampala, my dad had some friends who had actually settled in Leicester. So it was like within this small area, there were families who had settled and obviously my dad knew about this and they had sort of kept contact. So they became friends as the man group and there were my mom's friends, you know, their wives were my mom's friends and the children were my age so you know sort of, it was already a community. And were there cinemas at that point or you know, what kind of things were there to do in Leicester at that point? I tell you we used to go and watch three films at the go or two, I can remember. Because my, obviously parents won't allow us to go on our own. Or if we went out as a group of girls you know, there wasn't a question why you couldn't do this because my friends, they used to come and fetch me. Sunday afternoons used to be like, it used to be at any true number at the, the flyover, they used to be a Sangam cinema, you know there opposite the big sofa place there is a cinema and they used to have two shows. So we used to, my friends used to come and fetch me and we used to go out as a group of about six seven girls to go and watch two films on a Sunday. One after the other. Yeah, one after the other and in fact I was thinking the other day, how did we manage to do that? Because would there be Hindi films? Hindi films yes. So you are talking about like a good six hours really. Yeah it was to six hours, it was like we used to enjoy it really. And then when Navratri came, they used to have a big do at the ground there was, and we used to walk to that as well in a big group of twelve thirteen girls. And you would all get dressed up? Yes. What was it like, was there any shops at that point like Belgrove, you know like Belgrove roads, it's like the way it is now, obviously it wasn't like that and then so forgetting you know, all your dresses of buying all the spices for cooking, you know all those things, what did you do? There were more corner shops for spices and all that. And where we lived there was this corner shop within that area who stored everything. I can remember my aunty used to go there to get her you know 'ration' and things and he stored everything. You know, from milk to Indian spices and things like that. And then, Belgrove road like things were close and then there was the first shop I can remember is the Sari Mandir, which is a huge place now, but it used to be in a corner. So, because, okay my mom probably wore the Indian traditional clothes but obviously we were wearing normal dresses and skirts, which we, I had already also done in Uganda. So I think we used to shop at Visions store, I think. That was a quite popular shop at that time. It's older age--- Yes. Don't shop there now anymore. What about the actual religious community here at that point, were there temples or--- how religious were your family at that point, you know did they go to the temple regularly or--- My mom has always been religious and I think I will take on from her and I followed her footsteps in certain you know aspects of life. And the very first temple in U.K. they said was in Leicester and that was in a terraced house, Compert street. And you know my mom used to go there every evening like, to do Arati and she used to take me there as well. So it was like a you know, a ritual for every evening and if we could make it then it did matter. And then we came to know of the Sanatan temple, which is on Catherine street but because due to having you know like, not having a car, transport problems, if there were sort of big days where we needed to come then obviously either we walked it, or come on the bus. Where did you live in Leicester at that point? What area? What is now known as High Fields. Okay yes, so you were over that side. So it is quite away to come then, this thing yeah. It didn't matter to us, I can remember we used to walk. In fact we used to go to midnight movies with my aunties and uncles and walk three o'clock in the morning from the theatre or the cinema to home. And it didn't matter to us traveling at eleven o'clock on the bus on my own, had never bothered me. But I won't do it now. What about relations with other communities that were developing in Leicester? I mean like Muslim community or the Afro Caribbean community that was developing? Or was there any sort of inclinations at all, did you notice between the communities? Not in those early days because it was like you know, you are sort of stuck to your own community. Although you sort of knew that there were like High Fields is now the dominantly Muslim and Afro Caribbean community. We knew that they were around but they were pockets. And where my mom, after my marriage, she lived, there were like a few Afro Caribbeans in that street. But and I can remember my brother actually had an Afro Caribbean friend. And then Muslim community. We had neighbors, my aunty did, they had neighbors but it was like wasn't the same as what we experienced in Africa. It was a bit of a--- I don't know but, because I was a child, I never questioned it. But now I can sort of you know, sort of relate to why probably you know, people kept to their own communities, but at that time it's sort of, it's just that because the environment was such that there were only Hindus within that area. Although there were Muslim shops and you know, Muslim people living, but because we were new to the area, there wasn't that interaction. But now, I work in the community so it's very different. And I have got, like the history of your youth and moving to the U.K., but just tell us in just briefly about you know, how, because you said you were doing the part time secretarial skills course. So how, what happened in the interim time in between you know, getting that education and to where you are now, you know working with the community? Well obviously that was an office job and that was like just before I got married and Was that an arranged marriage you had? Yes, I am afraid so. Yeah it was similar to you know like, being introduced but when you say arranged, it wasn't that. My parents arranged and you have to get married, you had a choice obviously so we were introduced by a relative and then sort of. Then what happens in Asian families is, okay people introduce you but then also there is a little research done into the family or the background as well. And so there was a sort of a gap between saying yes and you know, whatever, but in between my father sort of was taken ill and so there was a bigger gap and sometimes I feel that it was fully destiny, you know, I don't know whether you believe in it or not but it's like you know, you have sort of sorted out from up there. So after a big, a sort of a gap of about four months or five months, the same thing happened and we sort of got engaged. Okay. Was it a big wedding or---? Yeah, apparently it was actually because I can remember, that I was feeling responsible and I wanted to say to my dad, that you buy a house and from whatever I had saved working, we would pay towards it. But they, because they had come from Africa, was a traditional man thinking that because we have been invited to so many weddings, and you are my only daughter so giving away a daughter is a privilege within Asian families. And he wanted to do that and he wasn't looking at the, you know the cost of freight and he was prepared, so there was a little sort of, you know fooling out between us because I was feeling responsible that as an elder daughter, because obviously as I said to you my brother is thirteen years younger then, he was only a baby. But he won't take that obviously being a father, he could only sort of, you know, go so far. So yeah it was a big wedding, I can remember. And the priest who, the priest of the temple came to bless and in fact, our own cult or was it my good fortune, people from Hare Krishna came to bless me at my wedding as well. Oh okay. Oh wow! Honestly they did, I have still got the photos. And the same priest actually has marked the beginning of everything in our lives. I mean looking at this--- Which temple was this? This was the Comfort Street. And the priest now is based at (inaudible) road. And we were, you know, working out, within thirty years, he has marked every beginning of our, you know, good things in our life. In fact he did the same with my own child. That's nice. Isn't it? Honestly, say it was like you know, it was meant to be. Where were you? I was asking how did you come you know, just the progression, you know to getting married and you know working. Well, obviously I got married and I wanted to study further but obviously, I got married into a family, which was a big family, and although my husband had a house of his own, it was like you know on rent. So we couldn't move into that because he had problems with the tenants. So I lived with my mother-in-law, which was expected of me and then, I think, you know my studies went out of the window. Somehow, but I still managed to do a part time course, went and did the caring for under fives and you know still had that urge to sort of do things on myself apart from working and you know, running the family. But then my mother-in-law went to India leaving me with the responsibility of running the household. And just you know, sort of got involved in that part of life and taking up the responsibility and for a short time, forgot my studies. So I managed to get a job, which you know like, was full time job within an office because that was my sort of aim, not to go back into factory work. And then my daughter was born after three years of marriage and I was home for a short time. But then I sort of, when she was ready to go to nursery, I went and sort of helped out, because that was a time when we still had the influx of Indian, young moms coming from India who didn't have the language, the children had Gujarati or Hindi as their first language. So I used to sort of, volunteer to help them settling to the, a class, so I helped the class teachers there and that way I sort of built relationship with them. And they were sort of, old friends, I was supporting my daughter within the school and her friends as well. So I sort of, got into the community, you know, volunteering then and obviously you are out to earn your bread and butter, we sort of moved out from the family home, had our own homes, settled in there, carried on working and then I sort of moved jobs, and I went to work for the City Council Recreation and Arts Department where I worked part time for about ten years. And then I went and did, sort of diploma in Interpreting and Translating because, seeing that there was still that need within the community, as a neighbor or as a friend or as a relative, we did that for our parents anyway. So I took that on and then sort of got involved then in that side of the community work. Actually we were the first people to sort of, go into a diploma in Interpreting and Translating services which was organized by the University of Leicester, and then I, apart from my many jobs, we also sort of, were employed as a pool of Interpreters by one of the NHS trusts. I always had a sort of incline into like how could I help the community, I think whichever way I could. So I sort of managed to get into pilot projects because you know, there always were pilot projects. When you know, there was research done within the Asian communities that what was needed like, we were talking about the day center part of it, the careers needed that support and they needed workers within the community who spoke the language and understood the cultural needs as well. So that way I got into that side of it. So I worked in different organizations where the Asians may have needed workers who speak their language to support them. Okay. You are talking a little bit about off like but could you tell me a little bit again just about, you know how things have developed in Leicester for you know for the Asian community with regard to you know, social care or you know that kind of side of things? I think we have progressed well although probably there are things that still can be done but I mean, thirty years ago the Asians, it was a norm or it was a myth that Asians took care of their own and there was the hardship that the, you know daughter-in-laws who went out to work had to suffer because like Asians always have been family oriented, and is expected of the daughter-in-law to look after her in laws no matter what. But then they were feeling the brunt of it as well having to cope with the home, family life, home life, looking after the elders and also having to go out to work. I think the services for the indigenous population was already there, but that day centers, nursing homes and things like that and it was a norm for a person to go into a nursing home, if need be, those Asians didn't do that. And slowly, you know there were community worker's leaders who were getting into the mainstream organizations, who felt that these things could also develop within the Asian communities. So then there were specific projects set up as a pilot, where I was involved where they had day centers, where they actually work on the Asian clients but then it was found that the cultural needs were different, the religious aspect of it, the you know, food, the catering side of it needed to be. So there were specific centers you know sort of set up for Asians and then there were lunch clubs set up for the elderly Asians because if their parents were, the father, children were at work and their daughter-in-laws were not there to cook for them, how would they manage? So lunch clubs were set up. But originally there were people reluctant to go eat but what I see from that day to now, people are actually you know, forthcoming to accept those services. So yeah that way that, those services have developed and there have been specific day centers, lunch clubs you know, being established in different areas as well. Melton road and Belgrove were the first original areas to have these things, but now they have sort of branched it out into different areas as well. In fact, now it has moved into Syston and Thermaston because they in terms of Asians have started to move from the Belgrove area into the villages. And there are groups set in here and I was also involved in doing setting up of sales as within the community in Loughborough from Loughborough and to Thermaston and Syston and Brighton. And do you think this is unique just to Leicester or you have seen developments around the country as well? Have you seen or heard of different things that are happening? I think there are the cities who are quite far advanced from Leicester. There are places in London, part of London, pockets of London where they, where probably Leicester has learned from them. But there are places, which probably may need to develop, you know, by learning from Leicester. I work in Loughborough now which is only about nine miles and when I went to work there I found that Loughborough was about twenty years behind, because the sources that were already set up in Leicester were lacking there but you know, there are developments within that area as well. But we still sort of feel that it could do better. Could be more. Could be more. It's also depending on the community of how you know, they expect or you know, would they just settle with what they have got or they are happy within or do they not know about the existing services, Loughborough now has an influx of more Bengali people. But we are sort of, its like, things are happening to develop there as well. So do you feel that there is a difference when it comes to that kind of a care with like a Gujarati community or Bengali community, what would be the differences? The issues are, still are the same but accessing sources maybe different. They are probably more reluctant to sort of, access services because if they feel happy within their own groups or can manage you know, it's like they would and there is always that struggle of accessing main stream services anyway due to like, lack of interpreters, lack of people who actually speak the language. So it's felt that people manage, but then again it doesn't mean that they don't need the service. Do you know it's quarter past twelve? Is it okay? It's okay. Yes Just worried. I just want to move on now to ask you just a little bit about, your Hindu background and religious rituals that you follow, the traditions, I mean it's proud that your mother is very, you know, very religious and she you know, would go to the temple regularly and you would go along with her. And what traditions then have been kind of carried on, you know from Africa to the U.K.? What things have, to your present day, what traditions have you know religiously been carried on, if any? They have been carried on and people have sort of tried to hang on to them also than India I think. It's because it's like that feeling that you are away from your homeland. But these are the things that remind you of that place. So even in Africa my parents; I can remember my mother you know following all the religious ceremonies, the rituals and whatever. They were brought here but what's happening now is, things are changing you know, in a manner that people are becoming aware of why and they are asking questions and I think, what I mean, with myself is like, I am sort of inclined to develop myself more spiritually within knowing how the, you know why and what of religion. And that way I also I mean, sort of learning more about the religion. So you are, you find yourself just developing personally? I do and. How do you feel that you have changed then over the years, or what has made you kind of, change your outlook may be? If that's the right way to put in. Well yeah, I mean first probably I didn't question my mother. We used to do things that you know, we were told to but then our children are sort of growing up, they are asking us and if we want to keep up with the culture and for them to follow, we need to have explanations for them. And so that way we develop ourselves and learn only can we sort of pass things to them. And I feel I need to learn a lot more about life, I mean, about our religious books like The Gita which is like based in Sanskrit and obviously to learn Sanskrit you know, it will take years. So we have experts within the community or we have recitals where you know, priests come and I make it a point to go and you know, learn it. But that doesn't mean that you know, I would only believe in rituals and what I do is I will also pick on religion and how it relates to our everyday life. So it's like myself, I feel that being a good human being you know, who is what our religion teaches us and it's said in so many you know, pages and verses but basically that's what it's teaching us to sort of you know, manage their happiness and you know, feeling good, keeping healthy mentally and physically by living in the world with all hardships and you know, things that happened to you. How to learn to live and keep you know sort of saying, is that the word I don't know, yeah. Tried to you know sort of doing but I think I still have a lot to learn. I mean do you, does your family have a Murti that they have always worshipped? You know and different Hindu families you know will favor one Murti and over another. Basically it comes with your own sort of family goddess as it's known, within the Hindu the culture that you always have a 'Kuldevi' which is your own family goddess. And every Hindu community has their, different one. Ours is 'Amba Maa' and apparently because, that's on our mother's sides, my in-law's side it would be different. But apparently it happens that we also believe in 'Amba Maa', my mother-in-law believed in 'Amba Maa' as well. And going back to how my wedding took place, there are certain sects within the Hindu culture where there are followers of Lord Krishna but they are known as 'Pushti' and they are very strict and I always resented a few things because I didn't understand the aspect of it. And I was, because my cousin was married into one and there were stops you know, put to her coming into our religious ceremonies and things like that. So at that age I understood the difference between the two and then I was to get married. When I first went out with my husband, was introduced to him, I sort of asked him, what religion, what his mom believed in because mother-in-laws have more sort of power on what your religion's going to be or what you're going to do when you are married. And I tell you what, one decision, the decision I made and one reason for that to marry him was that you know they were following the same religion as us because that fact can cause conflicts. So yeah, we believe in 'Amba Maa' and we have a 'Murti' and to me my mom gave me one and there is a photo, either that I sort of, I have in my shrine and that's like my idol. But it doesn't mean that I don't pray to any other you know Gods. Yeah absolutely. And do you have a family Guru or you know someone that you take instructions or inspiration? Yes. When you are born within the Asian community, you are, it's like even without knowledge your parents sort of do a ritual, which is called the 'Brahma Sambandh'. I am sure you know about it or probably better but that's how I came to learn about and my mom probably did that to me and she told me that you know, this was the priest who had given me a 'Brahma Sambandh'. But dad was quite strong about my feelings into believing into who my Guru was going to be because I thought, a Guru would be somebody who teaches you way of life. And I didn't believe in just having one Guru and the person who wasn't going to be there for me. So again, that's the question raised when a daughter is married that if you don't have a Guru, the 'Vaishnavs' would not eat food cooked by you. So you are supposed to wear a 'Kanthi' and although my mom had done that to me, she had given me the 'Brahma Sambandh', my mother-in-law said that because you don't have a Guru, you are supposed to go to a Guru who will actually do the mantra, give you the mantra, that you know, then you would not be called a 'Navgrah'. I have always been independent and I said to her that one day when I feel that I have learnt what I feel I need to, or there is somebody who is you know sort of, enlightened me, I will call that person a Guru. But apparently Satya Mitranand Guruji Maharaj used to come to Africa to preach when I was little. And I can remember going to listening to his lectures in Africa when I was small. Probably that stuck with me, but when I came here, after I got married, there were sort of recitals that he came and did. I went to listen to that and I felt that you know, he had sort of enlightened me and that you know, I felt that I had learnt something. So I said to my mother that I am ready. So I took her and I went and sort of, I had the Guru Mantra from him. But that does not stop me into sort of saying that you know, other preachers you can't sort of treat as Guru. So you can say Sadguru. I have learnt a lot from 'Morari Bapu'. And I listen to his recitals and teachings as well. So you then take wherever you can get the--. Yes I think it's that, but then I also have friends who, you know sometimes because you are told, if you have one Guru, you are not allowed to sort of change Gurus. But then it was one Guru himself who came and said that you seek knowledge from wherever you can. And at the end of the day your child could be your Guru at times because they could have sort of, taught you things in life. Your parents, your teachers but yeah I follow Morari Bapu. That doesn't mean that I would say Satya Mitranandji is not my Guru, which he is. And I would say Morari Bapu is my Sadguru because he, there is lots that I learned from him as well. And what about things like Karma or you know Reincarnation or those kind of things that are you know very crucial to the Hindu religion and culture? Do you, how much, how important are they in your like everyday life? I would love somebody to tell me all about you know. There are so many questions I would love to ask, you know, you are bound by your Karmas of the past and then you know, you are repaying that or this is a life you have because of that past. Now if you do good deeds in this life obviously you are going to be having a better life in the next coming birth. Who has been and seen that? The burning question I have is if you are a good person in this life, your soul is immortal. You would have been born; you would have had the same soul, the same thinking in the past life so you would still follow the same thinking and the good deeds in this life. But then again, you know, who has been there to see that. But I would love to learn you know and somebody to answer me, so I am still in process of, I mean I sort of, I am on the first step of learning about life. Although you know, I maybe old but I am still seeking answers to that. And what about the burning question, obviously, youth of today, how religious do you feel that they are nowadays, both in the U.K. and maybe in India or how are things changed, because you have been back to, you are seeing? Youth here, I mean, what is religion at the end of the day. To me it's again being a good human being. The youth of here I find very innocent, very open. Although they may not believe in rituals and you know ceremonies whatever, but they are quite open about things. So within them I think that they have got that religion of being a good person. And specially youth being, you know born here are, to people who have migrated from you know India and East Africa, I feel they tend to or from what I have seen in my community, they tend to sort of follow the family traditions. Either it's because they like the enjoyment of it or they want to learn. They are still following it and there are people who have actually went to doubt and changed religion. In fact, I mean, talking about individuals, so it's nothing within the community. I have a sister-in-law who actually went and changed religion and she went to become a Jehovah Witness and that caused quite an upheaval within the family but then again I think Hinduism is a religion that you know, is very open and we have accepted her with open arms now. So now, now she has come back. So she is still a Jehovah as well, or no she is not? No she has come back to Hinduism and the thing is, the family could have sort of resented her but no. Hindu religion doesn't teach you to do that. So you know obviously she is welcome with open arms. And do you think it's important for the youth to learn their mother tongue? I think so, it's very important. Because it's helpful to be bilingual or multi lingual if you can be. And there are advantages to it. And if you don't then you know, will lose it all together because I feel that India is losing it already because when I travel to Bombay, you try to speak in Hindi and Gujarati and they would answer you back in English. So it's becoming the tradition but I was listening to a radio the other day and they were saying that Hindi and Urdu are going to be, you know, spoken in line with English. So I don't know, you know, whether that's true or not but it is important but then again I used to send my children to Gujarati classes. They had it in mainstream as well. Krishna had it in mainstream, Shreyas had and then he didn't so it's like, I have not forced them into it but I do feel that I, you know, there are classes at town, you know running and places but he speaks it, he can't read it and read and write it. Probably a little bit. Main thing is I guess he is been able to speak isn't it? And this is also another topic that people like to talk about, so I would like to get everybody's opinion. The caste system and how relevant do you think it is today and do you think it's still stayed around in U.K. and also maybe in India or is it dying out? Its probably not dying out, because different castes have different ways of doing things. I think that is why it's still probably with the communities but that has not stopped you know, inter marriages within communities. But you will see that little thing that maybe different from one community to the other. And ways you know, things are done specially I mean, like within my daughter's family, two are like from the same caste, two are from different caste and you can't see the difference but when you sort of get into the depth of it like for example, wedding ceremonies or some religious you know rituals, they maybe different. Some are more probably close-knit communities whereas ours is a Lohana community, which is very big but then quite open about things though it's like, so it's actually on an individual but its not dying out as such. I think people are still proud to be you know, and the best thing like for example, I go to the day center and they ask your name, they ask you your surname and from that they derive you know, where you actually probably are from and what caste you are. (Interviewer: Okay.) So that's one way of identifying but I think things will change because inter marriages are happening. So one day everybody will become Manav because I also laugh with the ladies when I go downstairs. What's your surname and I say Hansa Manav, Manav being a human. I would like to see the world, they don't say a name, I won't have all these you know fights and you know fooling out that we have, if that is the case. And do you think it's easier now to be a Hindu in the U.K.? Oh for me it's never, I mean personally, it's never been hard because we have been, it's within yourself what you are. And I mean, at work probably like I was saying to you, when my mom sort of went to work, that she had to wear trousers and than top. And that was probably against, she, which we might have thought was against her religion but then she, you know, sort of accepted that, which people have had to. But if you are talking about certain things like you know, dresses and like for example, turbans that the Sikhs need to wear, they can sort of, openly do it because it's accepted within the community and you know there are lots of laws that are passed for them. I mean I don't see why not. It's not easy because probably I don't know whether, because we have lived a sheltered life or we are in a community where we have been able to sort of feel and be Hindu. So I don't know if you know any different. Or there maybe a person who may feel that you know it's in the family, difficult. Just a couple of final questions then, how do you identify yourself now if somebody says you know, you are like because you were born in Africa but you have lived in the U.K. for such a long time, you have you know deep, you know maybe spiritual roots with India and you are a practicing Hindu. There is a lot of things going on there, so if someone use to say you know, who are you, what would you say? Well, its an interesting question because when you are actually filling a form out, there are tick boxes where you say, African Asian, Indian, British Asian, and I am you know, normally confused, not confused but you know, I don't feel that I need to fill any of those. But then again if like then my parent goes to Hindu, and because that's where probably my father has originated. And I am proud to be Hindu accepting you know other cultures as well. So yeah I would say I am a Hindu but I am also a human being so I don't think, it should matter that whether you are a Hindu or a Muslim or a Sikh. What you are at the end of the day is what you are within yourself. And where do you see as home now? The truth, it's where you want to settle at the later life I suppose. I mean this is home now. Africa was home when I was younger. If I decide to settle back in India then I think that would be home. Do you feel that you would like to do that? Weather wise yes definitely. I would love to, I don't know, I sort of, have connections to that earth, although the first time I went to was after about ten years after I got married. But it's the richness, it's not just being in India, it's just, it's so vast, within that one continent, I mean, a country, there are so many different languages spoken, so many different religions followed and so you know I would love to go and settle I mean, later life, I would love to go and live there if I get a chance. Very nice. Finally then just to round off the interview, do you have any final thought or final message to people who would be listening in the future? Oh Gosh. I would say be yourself. Be proud of your origin. And if you can, try and keep the culture within. Doesn't mean that you can't venture out and not learn about other cultures, but the deep value that the Hinduism you know has. Follow that and you know, do the same for your children but at the end of the day, be a good human being. Thank you very much