family tradition, joint family, western influence 7th January, 2004 sound Sound Cassette English Abhijeet Joshi Oral Interview Interview 050 Manju Sekhri Female 59 60 Lucknow

Newcastle U.K. M. Sc. EN Hindi, English I would like to start off the interview, if you could tell me little bit about your family's background and where were your mother and you father born? And what were their family traditions and a little bit about them? I come from India and I came from a very big joint family, which had my grandfather and his brother living together so there were four uncles together with their married children so I am a part of very big family. And as I had my grandmothers living with us it meant that, it had an extremely traditional family in terms of culture and religion. I come from a sort of family where always very difficult to explain but there were poojas everyday, every morning, every evening and all the children have to be there and whole, the whole family had to be there. Not necessarily that we did anything more than that. But the family itself, as children were extremely kind of emphasis was on education that everybody, we come from a very highly professional family, non-business family. So we were not necessarily involved in all kind of religious things that were going on at home but we were very much part of it. We were there all the time, not necessarily sitting in the, joining in the singing and all that but evening prayers, yes, morning prayers, yes, and we have been kind of taught how to respect priests and all that very much. So from that point of view, yes, we were aware of it what was going on. It was right or wrong but not necessarily very much part of the religion itself. Whereabouts in India? I am from Lucknow, in the kind of North India. And belong to U.P Khatri family, not Punjabi that majority of people here are. And what was your father's profession? My father was a Chartered Accountant and worked for the Government Your other uncles and things they are all professionals? They are all professionals. They are either in legal practices or doctors so yes. So tell me a little bit then about your youth, and growing up in India, tell me some of your memories and what life is like for you? I went to through out, I went to kind of schools run by American missionaries. So from very early on I knew Bible very well. Because it is part of the schools and I knew that in India, my grandmother used to tell me these things that, long time ago when the missionaries came to India, how Lucknow changed because of the, it had a lot of Christian influence and a very big majority population of Lucknow was Christians. They were churches and quite a lot. I grew up like knowing Easter, Christmas so well. Not necessarily through school but part of the community itself where we lived, quite lot of Christians there. And I seem to recall Easters as something so important with all the Christian families going with their hats and best-dressed women you would see around. Schools were fine but when I left school I went to a very-very kind of posh American college Isabella Thoburn College. And is that, it was just the same where students were from all over the world. And a kind of very much western influence; both in teaching and dressing up and all that. So I was aware of it at home and also aware of it that there are differences in religion and how those differences are seen by other people. How I never felt the clash in my mind but I was very much aware of it, how my teachers would say idol worshipping is so wrong and there at home we did nothing but idol worshipping. But I never, I still say that not even for one second I had this feeling that something is wrong in either of the religions. I was aware of it there were two different ways of dealing with it and I am very proud of it even now to say that being part of it I could feel equal at home, in a church, in a mosque and in a temple. It makes no difference to me. I could still worship my God through any of these places. And do you think that is because of the religious background or just your upbringing in general then? What I think it is the religion. Now if you want to analyze it, I would say it is my religion that gives me this feeling that there are more than one ways. It is not a prescriptive religion; it does not say that this is the only path. Even within Hinduism you could see people worshipping hundred one different things. So really, I just I say this is you extend the range to say in that you add Christ at one end and Allah at the other end and to me it is just the same. When you were at home did you have like any duties or anything that you had to do? I mean you went to school and stuff but just in day-to-day family life, you were a part of big family anyways, so? No I would say as children we had no responsibilities being in from a big family and kind of social system that you have in India. There were loads of servants and then there were four aunties sitting at home doing nothing so they would do everything else, with the girls, just we did not have any responsibility what so ever as far as the housework was concerned. And what happened then once you finished college? I sort of, I went to University and I did my M. Sc. and immediately after the while I was just pass and I was offered a post at the University, straight away. So I taught and while I was still teaching, I got married. And my husband was a student here. He went to India to get married and got married and came over so I really did not have any kind of free time as such. Was that an arranged marriage? It was very much arranged marriage. Yes. And was that the way it was? The way it was. Yes. Kind of, I was just told that, this is what he does, this is his background, would you like to meet him? And I said what I hear seems okay. Yes. And I just met him once and had a little chat with him and that was all kind of decided to get married within three months. And for that you saw him and then three months later you got married. Was he there for the whole three months? Or did he go back? He was. No, he was there, but I did not see him. No, I did not see him after that. And I just came back. He came back earlier to send his papers back to India to British High Commission. I just came back within two weeks. And you came over? I came over. Did you come over on your own? Yes I came by myself but. How old were you? I was twenty-four. Yes. Tell me a bit about that. We, my husband was working in Portsmouth and Portsmouth I had such wonderful kind of, dreams of Portsmouth always you know that, it was one of the very best places. I think I came in 1969. I think that was the very best time I spent in Portsmouth because that was probably, I was perhaps the only Asian person around. I just do not know whether there might, there might have been a few but. And I felt that people were like Dickens novels to me that reminds' me of that when I used to walk down, people used to touch their hats and kind of wish me good morning. And I used to think how polite, how wonderful this place is. No matter what happened and I remember I was in one of those departmental stores and I was kind of like, how in India you wear saris when you get married. And when you are coming to England you do not wear, do not bring daily wear. You only bring party wear and kind of expensive sari, golden orange sari in nights and Leo, one of those John Lewis partnership places. And I remember a little girl stopping just in front of me and shocked, she says to her mom, she said, 'mom this is the queen' and I think she would not have seen all that glitter you know ever in her life before. And to me I would, I cannot seem to think ever wearing a sari and going to town now because things have changed so much. You would not get that response, you would give something like, paki or something, go back home. So things have changed quite a lot here. And what was your husband's profession? My husband is an engineer and has worked here for so long. Yes. And when you arrived here, did you work or were you a housewife? When I came here you know, I was on my own and living on my own. My husband would go to work and I was sitting at home and I really got so bored that within kind of three or four weeks I said to my husband, it is too much I can not just get so bored. So he said why don't you just see if there are any jobs as to keep yourself occupied. And I did get a job straight away. Within three weeks of my arrival in this country I found a kind of clerical job in the Department of Social Security or something. And that was absolutely brilliant and I just enjoyed going out meeting people. Well that is what my next question was going to be. How did you then start going about developing friendships and relationships or a community for you to socialize it, how did you? Well as far as, I only stayed in Portsmouth for one year and it was although I must say that I was very confident person when I came here. I never thought for once, people generally have kind of complex that I am different, I cannot speak English and all the rest but I did not have those complexes because I felt I was somebody. And it lasted for a long time, that thing and it gets taken away slowly. I think in the beginning I had no problems. I would just go do what I wanted to do, where, what I want, I did not have this thing what would people think of this thing that did not, never crossed my mind in early on. And I had lots of English friends, but I felt extremely lonely, there were times when I used to say that I really want to speak my language to anybody. Because, although I could speak English, it was not my first language. There were words that I wanted to use and say that God they have so much meaning. So yes I would I seem to remember seeing an Asian person in the street one day and I just crossed the road, I just went to her and I said 'God nice meeting someone from India and I know that the way I was brought up kind of very much, what do you say, class conscious which is a terrible thing to say but that is the way I was that I did not mean that they were lower or higher class, but they were different. There was nothing in common between me and that woman that I met. But I felt that it is I do not want anything else. I have got everything, she speaks Hindi, she is from the same background That is all that mattered? That is all that mattered, yes. Well which is surprisingly you hear, you think about those things now and you say 'Good Lord I must be so desperate for somebody who was not educated'. I would have thought nothing in common with her but did not matter to me. She spoke the same language. So where did you move then from Portsmouth? From Portsmouth I came straight to Newcastle. So I have just stayed for one year in Portsmouth and then been in Newcastle ever since with my husband, yes, he moved and joined Rolls Royce here and we have been here. Been here ever since. Yeah. So what was the community like in Newcastle in your life, was there a temple or anything or? Well. Yes there was a temple in a small house and but the problem was again the same thing that, my husband felt this thing and it is terrible to say those kind of things. He just felt that we do not want to live, we want to be part of this community. And he said we are not going to live in this, the area where most of the Asian people live. In fact I do remember his words, 'as far early as possible'. So we bought a house in Low Fell, there were not any Asians in the area. And it was absolutely brilliant, I felt straight away that this is the place I want to live always because we had, it was a new housing estate. There were everybody like us, young people with tiny babies or just going to have children. And everyone was really good. I could tie with people, old friends and everybody. And I felt that after eight months here I felt that I really want to do something intellectual, a little bit more studies. And I just decided to go to Durham University, straight rang them up and I said that I would like to meet somebody in Department of Anthropology because that is what I wanted to do. And they said fine. They talked to me and said okay, we would offer you a place on a condition that you have one year's residence here, where you have to come regularly to first year at University. And I had an eight-month-old baby. And I said that Lord what am I going to do with him. I cannot just leave him here and there. So I went to India and then left him there with my mom and I said he is here for one year. I have to go to do my Ph. D. So yes. I mean for a year I attended my all my courses and everything. And in while I have a little bit of time, I also started teaching Sociology and GCSC at Gateshead College. And kind of kept myself extremely busy. That's fantastic, so within a couple of years of being in the U.K, you have worked really hard? Yes, I worked really hard, I must say. But now I mean at that time if I take my child to play group. They would say good Lord everybody would say aren't you taking too much on? Aren't you taking too much on? Well I said no, I can cope? Yeah. So your son went to India for one year? For one year. Yeah. And that must have been difficult for you? No. Now I have got my grand son and my daughter in laws, and if they mention this thing I say never do that. But when I left him there, I felt that is the very best thing I could have done. I, now I have become soft I think but I really thought that I wanted to do something very important, that was very important to me to do my PhD. Okay. I want to, kind of move about, lets see if you can tell me a bit about you lives you know, you moving to the U.K? And I want to ask you now a little bit about religious practices and that side of your life. Now? First in India and how it's progressed? How did it change when you came to the U.K? Okay. Also you know passing on knowledge to your children then as well. Right. How did that work? Okay. I must say that when I came here, it was very difficult to get information about when is holi, and when is Diwali and when is Janmashtami. It was because I was not part of the Indian community to that extent and the temple was very much a kind of a close family or kind of clannish thing. And outsiders although were welcome but I never went because number one, I just did not feel happy having God in a kind of a small terraced house. I just felt that it is kind of a mockery of the whole thing. So most of the people who went to temple were a lot older. The way they practiced things were not my thought of practicing. And also I feel that you do not have to go to temple to be, to believe in your religion. What I did right as soon as I came here I rang my older relative in London and I said, I want a copy of the Ramayana. And that was important for me. I must say for next whatever ten years. I did not do anything apart from occasionally I would read that or I would respect that. It's been there. That was important. That time my children were about eight or nine years old. I felt that you know if there is Holi and Diwali and then we had this temple in the west end of New Castle built in a kind of and it was a very ordinary. What but I occasionally did take them to the place there. Just so they could meet and see things. But because I had two boys who are kind of not necessarily very interested in lots of things. They would just like to run around and all that so children perhaps were not interested in it. And then my husband is not really that was not that much interested at that time either. So we did not really practice much as such apart from the fact that I read more about religion. And even my children, like, Gita and all those things, they like in comic forms. I brought all that from India and they read. But in terms of practice we really did not really do much, I must say. But as the time passes I think it was not in terms of whether I wanted to do it. I feel that even if I was in India I would not have done. Because when you have got young family there are so many other pressures on you. I was working full time. I worked full time throughout my life. And the children going to a grammar school and all that, where religion is not really important, where people think being agnostic is more modern and all that kind of thing. It never took priority, but as the time progressed, as we had, children grew older and I had more time. I feel most religions now and in every sense of the word religion is very important for me. Although I go to temple occasionally but it is on Tuesdays when it is very quiet. So most people would not see me. There are only ten people in the temple on Tuesday. And when I do go I will ride in the front row, so I do not hear the gossip that is going on at the back. Yes. From that point of view I am religious but still if you say do I have a murthi in the house? Yes I have got a couple of statues of Gods here and there but I do not worship them. I just see that they are watching over me. That is all as far as my. What about in your family tradition, was there any specific murthi that came down in the way just like a traditional? Yes. One God or one murthi that the family will worship over others or did they? My, in my own family we had either Ram or Krishna. Both of them had equal value. And Janmashtami was in fact more important than Ram Navmi which is for Lord Ram and part, as part of my traditional house there was a very big temple was part of my father's property. That was in the nearby town. A very big temple, and I remember it was for Janmashtami. It was a very major thing; from months ahead we had started preparations for that. So I grew up with those kind of things that decorations and all that would be a part of it or we would all go there to see what was happening. So do you feel, do you do much of that now say coming up to Janmashtmi? Do you do preparations, or do you celebrate it as much? I do, I am afraid I still feel this way that there are times when I would like to do it. But I feel that I would insult the whole thing by bringing a tiny little murthi and praying in front of it and not doing all the preparation that should be done. I personally feel that way that I would rather go to Mandir and do it there. It is funny. Because most people would disagree with me that oh you should do it at home. I say yeah I do it at home. I would have, I will light a few candles and that, but it is something that does not give me satisfaction. I feel that I am just making fun of such an important time and That is it? What would you say are your own personal beliefs that actually make you a Hindu? Philosophy. I do think that going to temples is, makes any body a religious person. To believe in Hindu philosophy, to believe in Karma, that how important it is for today to be honest and those kind of thing. I would, like, I think it is the philosophy that attracts me more than rituals themselves. But then having said that I grew up with people chanting all these Bhajans, I am very much in to that. I would every morning without fail; I will put the cassette on. And I find the kind, I mean you know it is silly, most people would not understand it but to me the greatest peace that I can have is through that. To say that something that, I have got English friends here in the college and I talk to them and I say God, music and a kind of anything that I will show, you know, my sons would say the same thing mum any music will do that to you if you really like it. I will say okay maybe any music can do it but I, for me these Bhajans are something that calm you down to that extent I have never felt. It is very important for me. And also like religious books, read scriptures that I read, I find that way but I do not read for the sake of reading. I read because I just think about the meanings of things and why it is said? And how it can be? And also there a quite a lot of on Asian television there is a lot of big saints or whoever gurus come and preach and I listen to those things as well. You have ever actually been to see one of those speaking No. I do not know but then I am not one of those people who would go and see anybody even if the biggest film star come, I say so what? If he is sitting next door I would not bother. Okay. I want to ask you a couple of some general questions to do with Hinduism or its practices. Do you think the youths of today; do you think that they are more or less religious than you were in youth? Are you talking about in England? In England or in India both, if you compare them? It is very difficult because I mean you know obviously in India, I can, I only see my immediate family. So I really would not be able to generalize. But I could just say in terms of my family I feel it is difficult to say how you define a Hindu. If you say do they go to temple? Do they know this thing? I would say no they do not go to temple then I did not go to temple either. But I would say that they are very, I would still call them very Hindu because Hinduism tells you to open up rather than look within and become narrow. They would fight for the cause of anybody; they would not take injustice from their own parents. They would say, you know what is happening in India at the moment is kind of when you think of the temples have been pull down, all these problems. I remember when I was there last time and there was kind a big hoo-haa about Babri Masjid and all that. I remember talking to my brother's daughter and she said this is all together rogue. Why should anybody pull down a mosque? And they were all kind of, I really thought absolutely brilliant for children to see, if it is your religion, it is someone else's religion to have respect for other people's religion is to be part of Hinduism. I do not understand how people can say, my religion is better than yours because that no religion teaches you this thing. If you have respect for your religion you should have respect for other people's religions too. I feel they are Hindu they have got philosophy. So I would say they are more into a different kind of religion. They do not worship at home or they do not go to temple, but they are now at a level of philosophy. Maybe a deeper perspective. Yes. They would go to meditation and these things are very important so I think with time religious practices change, although the essence still is the same. Yeah. My own children, I have got two boys highly successful. They would still have on special occasions like weddings and all that they would very much; I thought you know that would be one of the problems, when they would say nothing to do with Mandir and all that. But they both said they would like our traditional Indian wedding with priest and everything, every ritual that goes. And when they have their own little boys, they brought them here. They wanted to be blessed here in the temple. I thought that was very good. They are, they don't speak the language so it is very limited what they can do. But they have got all the philosophical books. They would read Gita, they have read it, they understand and if there were anything special happening in London, they certainly will go. Every time we go there, they would say to us, let us go to the Manor and we would, they will give them a chance. They would like their children, they keep on saying mom teach them everything. That is nice. Yeah which is nice. They would like to maintain the culture and religion Both along, together? Yes and I think you know we missed a generation, but I think my grand children I would not let them get over it without that. One of the thing caste, caste issues, do you think there is still an issue today? I mean it is very difficult. I can only talk about my background where we are extremely liberal in our thinking, perhaps because we have been sort of in education kind of sort of three or four generation has been educated and kind of liberal in their thinking. It is not important, and it has never been important when it was marriages for my sisters and their children. As long we have, I have said the same thing to my children, as long you marry Indian that is what matters a Hindu, Hindu is important, makes no difference. The only thing sometimes you feel is, if it's the same language there is a better understanding, but then it does not apply here because my children do not speak Hindi either, sorry. But they have got married to somebody who is a Hindu. Okay, just a couple of final questions then to round off the interview. How would you identify yourself, if somebody is to ask you, you know, who are you? Because you have already lived in the UK for such a long time, very Indian at the same time you held on to a lot of your, you know, culture? So I were to ask you, you know, who are you what would you say? Well I would say I am British that is most important thing to say you are British. And within British there are generally people do not extend, they have got this British definition of white Anglo-Saxon most probably. But I always say please stretch it now we are here and we should be within this range. So I would say there are British Indian, British-Wales, British-Scottish. So well, yes my heritage is Indian. So you would say British, British Indian? I would say British Indian, yes, but I would not say I am a Hindu that does not apply, that does not come before British. It comes British and then. Where would you see as home now? Home is for all every sense, home is England but in my dreams when I am stressed I want to go there, when I am there and I am stressed I say I just have had enough of this I am going to England and I think England is home now. India is a place, where I would love to go for short periods, where my brother and sisters are I just go to see them. But, no, England is the home I can never ever think of buying a property and living there truly. The thought crossed my mind many-many times but I said no, I just, this is the place where I belong. There were a time when my husband was going to get a job in India and I seem to remember that I said, and that was only five years after we came to England I was going down a bus in Low Fell and I said, wow if I leave, if I go to India I will never see this place again and I said nope, I am not going to India, to live forever. Okay finally then do you have any final thought or any message for people who would be listening to this in the future? I do not know what sort of people would be listening to it. Is that kind of English people who would be listening to it or could be anybody? Could be anybody, could be even your future generations. Okay yes what I would say is that I feel it is very important to be yourself and if you think you are Indian you have to maintain that, you have to maintain your identity which ever way you see yourself and be honest to it. There are times when you feel that there are pressures from outside to take away this kind of identity and you would like to do it. I have done that. I have said I would not wear English clothes because that Indian clothes, because that just makes you a kind of a target or people just judge you on the basis of that. Okay now I realize, that was my lack of confidence in my own ability because there are people who would still look at me and say wow you are not English so why you are, what you are trying to prove? I always just say maintain your culture it is very important. But I would still say if there is conflict your first, I think one should try ones best to make progress here and settle here happily. But if there is conflict, I think one has to be very careful, you cannot just be somebody else. You may just, I would, I just define this way, look I could wear English clothes, I will wear anything. I wore mini skirts but I was still an Indian at heart. Always would be Indian and kind of now there is no difference between India and here, all the girls there wear short skirts. So really it does not matter but yeah I would say it is very important there would be times when you would not be able to maintain or think as Indian. But sooner or later as the time passes, you would regret that. Okay thank you very much. Thanks.