Reincarnation, Religion, Lohana community 26th November sound Sound Cassette English Abhijeet Joshi Oral Interview Interview 054 Narayandas Adatia Male 73 74 1930 Kenya

Leicester U.K. Secretary and a member of National Council of Hindu temples, trustee of Lohana community EN English Mr. Adatia would you like to, if you can start telling me your story, but I would like to start with your parents, I wanted to know, kind of, about your family's history first of all, where your mother and your father are from and how they got together and what was their life like before you were born? Right. You know that we are Hindu first of all and we are Indian. My father, born in India in about 1901 or something and he was not very well-to-do family, money wise. They are working class people. When the time passed by, he had an opportunity to go to Kenya, someone sponsored him. And in 1920, he decided to go to Kenya, at the age of about twenty-two, something like that. What did he do before that in India, what was his profession? Well, they had a small farm in a small village called Monpari, in the Gondal state of India. He had a brother, mother and other family members as well. But family decided that, if someone from the family goes to different country, he might be better off money wise or business wise. So in 1920, he sailed from Bombay in a dhow, you know dhow, it goes with the wind, you know, that boat with the wind. And he has been telling me that, it took him about one month and six days to reach Mombasa from Bombay. So long just to go across that little bit of water. That is, because that thing goes according to the situation of the wind, you know, direction of the wind and when the wind is in a right direction, it goes far, but when the wind is a different, where they have to stop it for. So it took quite a long time. And even he was telling me that, food was shortage in the dhow, but they have to ration it you know. And after reaching Mombasa, he went to a small village, a very small village, in the Nyanza district of Kenya, which, place was called as a, Butere, it is about sixty miles from Kisumu Pier. At that time, the life in Africa, it was very bad, bad means not comfortable. There were no electricity, no water facilities, not enough ration to eat. Was he there on his own? Did he go on his own? Well, he was with some family, but on his own, yes. You know, the servants, African servants, that time they were calling them boys, but they are servant. They have to go to river, but to walk about a mile or so to get water from there. Then there was no toilets, no housing facilities as today. In a house, about three, four, five family men, people stay together, eat together and that is the, how life was there. In the small villages, they cannot get everything, even to get goods for selling, you know, for that shops, they have to go about sixty, fifty-sixty miles and those days, there was no transportation like this, no lorries, no trucks, no trains. He was telling me that, they were going with some African servants, five, six donkeys and they walk. Sixty-five miles? Sixty, sixty-five miles, they go there in two, three days time. In the night, they put fire on and sit around there, so the wild animals cannot hurt them and that is how they were getting goods to the village and then they sell it and run the shop business like that. It was not very easy life, not really. And I think, most of Indians or whoever immigrated there, suffered the same thing. Well, in the big cities, there was a different life. But still, it was, there was no water taps, no electricity. They were using that lanterns, kerosene burning. And this, they do not have beds or anything to sleep, just they put something on, mattress on the floor and they sleep like that. There was a fear of animals, wild animals, snakes in the houses, you know, but that is how they lived their life in Africa. In 1926, he again went to India. Back on the boat again? No, in a Steamer that time. A Steamer this time. A steamer called Khandala, it was that time about three four hundred passengers could go in that boat. Then he got married there to my mom. At that age, my mother was about fourteen-fifteen years old. Really? And how old was your father then, twenty? Twenty -five, twenty-six. Twenty -five, twenty-six, okay. After the marriage, soon he has to come back to Kenya because he had a shop there, someone else, a relative was looking after that. Parents of my mother came to Bombay to say farewell to my mom. They had tears in their eyes to send away a daughter. Yeah and she is so young as well. Age only fourteen-fifteen. Yeah. The tears was coming out from the eyes, felling in the sea, not to increase the level of the sea but the feelings. Yeah. They waved the handkerchiefs and boat was sailed from there. They came to Africa again and my mother joined in helping in the shops as well. And in 1928, she had a miscarriage, but I was born there, my, first child in 1930. Okay. How did you find it? Did she ever tell you what it was? Well, this sort of, stories they have been telling me, when we are sitting together or even. And after that, I had another brother there. We moved to another small village called Oyugis. It is not far from there. That was about, seven-eight shops of Indians there. There was no school. Then I had three sisters there. At, in 1942, I think, forty-two, yes, when I was about eleven, twelve years old, my youngest sister, was about one year old that time, one, fifteen months old and my mother was expecting another baby. It was Diwali time, two days before Diwali. We call it Dhanteras. That day we all pray to Goddess Laxmi, Dhanteras. All the traders do that. I remember, that day, we were just playing with fireworks outside, early morning about five o'clock, when I am you telling five o'clock, people were getting up early there in Africa, because they were buying grains from the Africans and they came early morning you know, because after nine-ten o'clock it becomes very warm, so they cannot walk. So every, all the shopkeepers getting up early that, those days. So about five o'clock, we were playing out with the fireworks and suddenly my mother gave a birth of boy. But those days, there were no doctor or hospital facilities or anything like that. Only some old woman, in the village had some experience of midwife or that sort of thing, they were come to help, you know. Well, that was the day five o'clock in the morning, my mother died in the labor and the boy died as well. My father was crying, we all came back in the house. How old were you then? Eleven years old. That was a terrible thing to accept, you know. So my father was just very confused what to do because we, five kids. And young, very young children. Shop to run, to manage everything. He was not rich either. Day to day, food mouth, you know, food to mouth. Since, that day my life changed. I had to help him to look after the kids, to change their nappies, to wash them, to feed them, all these duties came on me. Even to help my father in the shop because he was not feeling very happy about anything now. Yeah, absolutely. And so, in this all circumstances, I never been to any school, up to for thirteen years and I was just helping. But then the shop went bad again. There was nothing we can do about it, we left the shop and went somewhere else, the different village. There again, we started shop there, another shop and myself and my brother, had an opportunity to go to nearest, a bigger village, where there was a school. So we went there and left, live with some other family members there. But, in three months, we were tired of these things you know, feeling of the home, living with someone those days, it was not very easy either. Yeah. So I, we left the school. At that time we were learning Kenya primary, A-B-C-D, that sort of thing. Came back, helped father in the shop. But after, when I was about fourteen years, I had another opportunity to go in Kisumu, which was a big village. Big village means, just something like Loughborough or smaller than that either. We were admitted in the school there and we were living in our Community Boarding School, Boarding House. There again, three months and we were not feeling to learn you know, so I left the school. I have got quite a few friends here, from Kisumu, when we were learning. Went back to the house and so as I said, I have never been to school, my education is nil. I am totally illiterate person. Then my father, he had three daughters and to keep daughters in the house without mother is very difficult again. So my elder sister means, younger than me but elder sister, she was about fifteen-sixteen years old that time, we found a family and get her married then. Soon after that, in couple of years time another sister got married and then the third one. But during this period, I have been looking for some jobs you know, the shop was not doing well either. I went to work in a ration shop, in Kakamega. It is a small city, village, not very small but middle village, in a ration shop. I have to get up early in the morning, six o'clock and then walk, just go to employer's house and have a bath and have a cup of tea and come back. I was getting about sixty shillings salary for a month and food with the employer. Was included, right. Okay. In the night, I have to sleep on the counter of the shop, putting a blanket there. Wow! And get up early again. That was a life there. It is nothing new. It is acceptable, accepted, that is what happened. Yeah. My brother had that sort of job as well. But it was not paying very much. So we have to struggle to live. Then I was tired in that ration shop in two-three months time because we did not used to that. So there was an, I had an advertiser, in a paper, for a school teacher, in Miwani, which was a Sugar factory there, belonging to a Asian family, of my own family members. They wanted a teacher there very badly in the school. So I took the opportunity, say, 'let me apply.' And I got the job. As a school teacher? School teacher. Because the problem was there, the children there, in that particular area was bit rough. And no teacher was staying there at all. Any teacher go there and two-three months and out. So they wanted anybody. Believe me, the owner of the factory send me special Cadillac car to take me from there. He was very kind person to me. So I started my career as a teacher there. Believe me, I have not been to school. But my father was a good teacher as well. All right, okay. I was going to say, how did that work? He was teaching all this. So, I started there. From morning eight o'clock to one o'clock, school time after then, I cook myself, something to eat, then go to sleep for while and then there was a big club there. Club means, house of the Club, no members of the club there. There was a billiard table and piano and that sort of thing. So after four-thirty, we just go there and play billiard and piano and that sort of thing. And there was a European Philip family from here, whose father was there as an Engineer, he had two daughters, young ones, about my age. They come there. So we play piano, play billiard and pass time like that. There was a big library as well. One day something happened, which was bit funny, the owner of the factory came with a Singh, who was compounder there. When I say compounder, the compounder helps doctor in the surgery for looking after the medicine, that is all. That's what call, compounder. They came when I was sleep afternoon, they knocked the door, I say 'who is that?' He say, 'my name is Laljibhai.' I say, 'okay.' I opened the door. I was surprised to see them, because they never come like that. I thought what has gone wrong with me, something is done wrong or what? Then he say, 'oh, master, you have to help us.' I say, 'how can I help you?' They say, 'look, this is Mr. Singh.' Yes, I know him. I have been to, your medical site, couple of times. And he said, 'look, you must help him.' I say, 'what is wrong?' See, he has got a daughter. She is giving exam of Kenya Primary. Kenya Primary means seventh standard, you know. And you have to give her tuition. I was just, could not, I could not think what to do really. Because I do not know. I could not teach second standard, how can I do, go in the seventh standard? If I say no, I lose the job. If I say, I do not know what to do. But I took up and I say, 'okay, I will teach her.' Yeah. And then I went to sleep again. Then these two girls came again there. And I say, 'go away. I do not want to see you anymore, you know.' They say, 'what is wrong with you?' I say, 'look, this is what is happened.' And they were educated. So they said, 'do not worry. We will help you. Tell them to get a syllabus from Kisumu.' So they brought the syllabus and that thing went on like that. And then they did it instead. Did you tell them that they, say, do not want to teach you know? They did not wanted to know. So. Brilliant! But after three-four months, I knew I was not doing right thing you know, because I was not doing much to children, I was just only taking care of them. But teaching side was nil. Then I left the job, I said, 'no, I do not want to do that anymore.' So did you go back? Back to home and then, you know, my younger sister, as I said, as she was in Kampala, Uganda. I say, 'I, better I go that side.' Then I went to Kakira Sugar factory. And I was given a responsibility in an office, I have to keep the records of all the sugarcanes come to the factory, I have to keep record of them and then arrange the collection of the sugarcanes from the field you know, that was my duty. And then, I have to do in the night and day as well. But in the night, one day what happened, in a couple of months time, I was in night duty and I was feeling asleep, so I slept in the office. It was office of corrugated iron sheets, not bricks or anything. Yeah. And it was raining, so it makes a different noise, you know. So, anyone can fell asleep. And what happened, a truck of the, sugarcane came off the rail. In the train, you know, they have got small train. Sometimes I was driving that train as well. But then I say, 'no, I do not want to do this night shift.' I left that job. I went to Kampala. And then, about hundred miles from Kampala, there is a another village called Masaka, I went there. There I found a job in a Produce Buyer, who was buying Castor Oil seeds, you know. In couple of days I had diarrhea because Castor seeds, you know, that is got that sort of nature you know. I worked there, I said, 'look, I do not want to do this thing. I am going.' But that time he had no one to look after their Accounts system you know, so he gave me that job, he tried to teach me. There I learned a bit of accounting as well. But then I left that job as well, went Kampala back. Started in a factory. It was making Sufarias and they have to deliver Sufaria by lorry truck to Mombasa or Nairobi, somewhere. So I was driving truck that time to transport. So I did that job as well. Well, this sort of, period took about, I was about twenty-three, twenty-four years by that time. My brother also. My father was looking, he was looking forward, me to get married to someone. Settle down. I had couple of girls as, be frank, let me tell you, but it was a different caste and our, that time orthodox people, you know, they do not want that sort of thing, it was not like that, easy. So I could not get through anything. Then I was engaged to a girl, that one, my wife. But our financial side was not very nice. Our shops went to liquidated because my father was not doing much and I could not. And we were in problem there, so we left that village and went to Nairobi, to settle there. We had a, hired a room there, both brothers. My brother started in a special police job. And I started in a firm, Motor Car firm, was, which was called 'Motor Mart and Exchange.' They had franchise of this, American cars, Chevrolet and that sort of thing. They had quite few branches all over the Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania. And Head Office was there. So I had a job there, as an Accounts department, just to record the invoices and that sort of thing, easy things. Not a very high level, but small-small things I can handle it. I started there, about four months, we had a customer there, who was coming from Thomson's Falls. And he wanted someone for his shop, who can do some Accounts, look after the customers. He has a grocery departmental store and he offered me a good job. I was getting only three hundred shillings here, per month and he offered me about five hundred shillings and plus living accommodation, food with them. I say, 'okay.' So, yeah, he told me, he asked me when can I job, start the job? I said, 'NOW.' I went to my manager and gave him straight away my resignation. And just went there, in a small village again. At what point did you get married then, because you said you were engaged? Well. So what happened with all that? Well, since I started that job and my father-in-law thought I am bit stable now, then he was agreed to get married, you know, up to that he was not very happy either. Okay. He was looking that if I get somewhere settled then. So was it, was the engagement, was it like an arranged marriage or how did it work? Well, it was arrange marriage. Yeah. Yes, it was arrange marriage. But he still wanted to wait. But we were still in love because she came one day, she passing through that village where, in and I saw her because their car broke down and they were wandering in the town. Yeah. And in the first sight we say said, 'Oh, we will go through'. Yeah. And then our parents also agreed. And when I was settled there, we get married. I had a small room given to me, about ten by eight. With this job, yeah? The job, with a bed there and that is how our life started there, family life. Then my brother got married as well. Is this all in Nairobi, did you say? Yes, he also left Nairobi afterwards. Soon after I left, I found him a job in the same department, different village. He got married. When he got married he was still in Nairobi, but he came afterward. And from there, I left that job, after about six years and started my own Garage business there. I got some agencies from Marshall's, who was selling the Peugeot cars and different, some small things and started that way. After about two-three years, Overseas Motor Transport Company in Nakuru, was selling out their business, they were closing down. It was a big company, big company and they had franchise of this Morris cars, which was from England. And my employer, just taunted me, 'Oh, mister, what you doing? Go and buy that thing.' But that gave me a strike, you know, in mind, I went there and asked the Manager if that was for sale, if it is true. He says, 'yes.' I say, 'I am interested.' He say, 'you have to go to Nairobi office.' He gave me name of the officer there and I went there. That time, I had only about three to four hundred shillings in my pocket or my capital, total capital, three hundred, four, three-four hundred shillings, which is about five pounds, today's value. I went there. I talked to the Manager. He was very sympathy and they were tired of that place, they want to get rid of it. And we arranged some terms and conditions with them. They wanted to sell the building. I said, 'look, I will not buy building now, but I will, give me an option for two-three years to buy it.' We fix the price. They say, 'you have to take over the staff.' I say, 'okay.' You know how many staff? Seventy people, Manager, Secretary, Telephonist, this and that, 'yes, I will take it over. But I can reduce if I want.' I took the guarantee for that. Otherwise, you cannot, you know, to the unions and this all thing. I said, 'look, cars you have to supply me on consignment.' Means, on their risk. If I sell I pay. But it is their property. They agreed. The spares, sixty days credit line. I said, 'okay.' That was agreed and that is how I got the business. First thing I did was to get rid of Managers, Secretaries. There were about six lines of telephone, and counter only one and I started that way there. There was a B.P. Petrol Station. My account was in Thomson Falls Bank. I pay cheque, it goes three days after, in that bank, so I sell the petrol, go and bank it there and the cheque is made. That is how we were doing. We started that way. But time went pass, I was doing very well there. We both brother were together, doing very well. We, when I left, I had about more then seventy staff, when I left there. We had, to sell petrol, we had a Government contract that any car passing through, they should buy petrol from me. Then I had sub agencies for so many cars Fiat, Mazda, Colt, I had a franchise of Ford, I was importing them from here, from Germany and from Australia and we were well-to-do then. I had my own family, a daughter, a son, another daughter and another daughter. Three daughters, a son. My brother had a son, three daughters. And did you all live together? Together, no different houses. Different houses. But the time changed and people were thinking of coming here and we did not see much future that time. Even though, business was going so well? Yeah, because there was so many obstructions. First of all we were not the citizens of Kenya, so we cannot do anything ourselves, school problem of children and so many other small-small things and we had a British passport, Colonial passport. Yeah. Which we came and change it to right passport from British. And then we thought, better we leave the country. So we came to this country in 1975 with my kids, both brothers. The whole family came? Whole family. And the all at the same time or did one come first and? No, was in two-three months time. Yeah. I sold all the cars to Hughes company, he was the Ford dealer as well, with a loss of some amount. I sold the building as well, with some loss. I quite few amount of outstanding, which I forgot about it. I came with a very small capital in this country. We bought two houses here, for both brothers terrace house and I had one semi detach house here, for seven thousand pounds that time. The terrace house for three thousand pounds, when I came first time here, I joined a Motor Car firm here, as a sales person, you know, that building in the corner there. There was a car showroom there. Oh, okay. It was called Leedhams, who were selling Morris cars. I started my life as a salesman there. Oh, okay. And my brother started a shop on Harrison Road, a little shop. What kind of shop? Rations and that sort of, Asian ration. Grocers. Grocery shop. Okay. And that is how we started in this country. I left that and then I started a business of newspaper shop here, on the Hastings Road here. Get up four o'clock in the morning and I was very keen to serve the community as well, so I joined as a Secretary to my community to certain temples. Which community is that? Lohana community. And then all other organizations, I was joined with them as a Secretary or a member or a President or a trustee. What kind, which organizations, which temples? Well, I have been in a, Lohana community. I been a joint Secretary, in Sanatan temple, this and then I was trustee again there. I was in a, Gujarat-Hindu Association, which is a parent body of all the organizations here, which was about twenty-seven, twenty-eight organizations under that umbrella and I was again Secretary and a member of National Council of Hindu temples. And then I had a President of Hindu temple and Community Center, which is on Saint Barnabas Road now. Oh, I know that one, yeah. I bought that place myself. Did you? Okay. With the, for the community. Yeah. And then, in the Ram Mandir here, I was President again. I was representing all these temples in the Police Consultant Committee. I was a member of a Patient's Advisory Committee, on the hospitals as well. I was selected or short-listed as a best citizen of the Leicester. I am, I had different chance but I just lost that again as well. So on this all things, I have been opportunities to meet big personalities, like Prime Minister, Police Officers, M.P.s, Councilors sort of, lots of things. So I had good relation with them as well up to now. Up to date. So that is how my life started. Now I, my wife died in '95 and I sold my shop as well. Because you know, I was working round the clock, because looking after so many organizations, there is always some meeting in the night, so I was going to bed about eleven-twelve and get up at four for the newspaper shop, so I was tired as well. Absolutely. Meanwhile, my daughter, my elder daughter married, they have got a Post Office now, in Nottingham, Colwick. She got two sons, both in University now. This is my daughter, she is bit crippled, disabled, so we didn't thought about her marriage or anything you know, she is better with me. The younger one was married here in London, but now they have moved to Darussalam. They bought another factory there, Plastic factory. They are settled now there. I lost my wife in ninety-five, since then the life is a bit different again. But that is how we, ourself started here. But when we came first time here and all other people, who immigrated from Kenya, Uganda or Tanzania, it was not easy for them here. Yeah, tell me what was it like? Yeah. Well, first of all, who were thrown out by Uganda, they were accommodated camps and then they came all around the, settled themselves, buying house or renting house. But renting house not very comfortable either. And believe me, at that time even in this civilized country, it wasn't facility like, facilities like we got now. There were no heaters in the house, we were using that, kerosene heaters, taking from this room to other room and then that room is ready, take to other room like that. Our food, I mean Indian foods were not easily available those days. It is difficult to buy. They are not, now you can go anywhere and there are so many restaurants, inn and takeaways and that all, but it was not that time. Even groceries, you cannot get everything here or vegetables. But now you can get anything here, so that was a bad, different time again. What were the communities like then, I mean, because there was a couple of, was there already a couple of temples here when you came here or did you, were you helped, did you, you said you helped with the Hindu temples opened now? When I came here, in 1975 there was two temples here, one was this Sanatan Mandir and the Hindu temple, on the Cromford Street. Yeah. I think, the Cromford Street temple was in a small terrace house, but that was the first temple and then Sanatan temple. And I was President in that Hindu community, in that terrace house temple. I have been twenty years as a President in that temple. Then, that temple was bought by a Saint lady, who came here, with her help, with money of public. But she was registered in her name, so there was a conflict, so I handed over, after court case, I handed over that temple to her and then I was looking for different place, which I got now, on Saint Barnabas Road and we built up there. Then I planned and started a Ram Mandir here, in the Lohana community as well. And I was the convener, when we bought that building as well, for Lohana Community and that I have just time to do all these things. Do some work for the community. Yeah. But now I think, Indian community has settled very well here. It is very established. And I could say with proud, that we are a part of a British citizen. And I think, we have supported our economic as well, by going in various business factories, hard working nature, our children are doing very well in the colleges, schools as well, getting good results. And I must say that, we are hard working people and now we are well settled here. Now, when I am asking my children that I want to move there or this, they says, 'no, we cannot go anywhere from here.' They like here. So that is how my life and our life is here. Has come about. I think, that is what is enough for you to know. Well. Do you want to ask anything else? Just a couple of things, you have told me all about your life and your history, exactly how everything happened. But there is a couple of other things I want to ask you, about your own, you have been involved in the temple so much, but, what is your own personal feeling on Hinduism or what makes you a Hindu? What are your practices and beliefs yourself personally? Right. Yeah, well, I have born in Hindu family. I came from Hindustan. So it is a Hindu country and whether we believe or not, but whatever anybody says, but, let me tell you, about six to seven, sixty to seventy million people believe in Hinduism and Hindu religion. Now, my feeling with religion is that, that what is a religion? We can separate this religion two ways, different ways. Religion means a controller, to control the thing, which you possess, that is one part of the religion. Another part is the way of life. Now, you cannot change the nature, there as religion, some religion is natural you know. Suppose, to come to the world by birth or death it is natural. You cannot change it. It is not in our hand. But still our body, our body had got some duties to the soul, which we call is a religion. Religion means duty. Something, which you cannot change, to death, birth, become ill, well, we can go to doctor and get better. But still, doctor, science, medical says, 'where medicine cannot help, a prayer can help.' We all believe in that. Ultimately we have to go to nature. God is a nature because nature is everything, in a live thing or death thing. God is in stones because stones also is moves, not itself, but it serves the thing. Water, Air, so that thing is one side of the religion, which we cannot change, it is there, we like or not. Everyone has to agree, any caste, any religion, any creed, that there is some existence of power, which you call God. It controls the whole world and the universe as well. So that is one part. Other part is, by reincarnation of God, we have learnt so many things, it teaches us. Well, if we take story of Rama, lifestyle of Ram, he has taught us, what is the relation between father and mother, children and father, Guru means master and students, everything, husband and wife. So we have to learn a lot from there, not only for and it is not said, for only one community or for one religion. If you read those scriptures or books you will never find he said Hindu word there, it is for whole world. Suitable for everybody. Suitable for, not for that time, even today, we get a something out of it for our life; how to live the life, that is one part of the religion. So and I like Hindu religion, because it is broad, it is not narrowed or for certain things only. It is for whole world. It accommodates everybody, who believes in the God or do not believe in God, who believes in religion or do not believe in religion, it is open for everyone. Well, in the other religions, that is not that thing. That is only for certain community. Now, another thing what I believe, religion is based on the different situations of different countries. Anything is good in our country cannot be suitable in other country. So there is a different rule there. So religion is a rule. So their religion is a, because of, according to their situation and the atmosphere of the country and so on. When this books or our religion, it was called as a Sanatan Dharma, Sanatan religion, which is, we do not know when it came in the existence, so old, eternal. No one knows how it started, when it started. So it was not said for any particular country or people. Perhaps, on these days, this world was one piece only, that is what, that is indication in our books. Lately it became to this parts, America, Asia, Africa and different parts. So when the people were separated, they accepted the different religion according to their situation there. But nowadays, the Hindu religion is all over the world. And as I said, fifty to sixty million people believes in that, in Hindu religion. So if the, someone says, 'no, it does not matter.' So there is something there. Now, Hindu, how it came to Hinduism or Hindu? People living in the bank of a river called Sindhu, in India, they were known as a Sindhu. But after sometime, they were known as a Hindu. It was altered from a Hindu, Sindhu to Hindu. And this, Hindu people accepted this Sanatan Dharma and they gave name of Hindu Dharma. That is how Hindu Dharma come in existence. Okay, so when was this? It is quite long ago. Maybe, quite few years, I mean, millions of years back the story starts. Well, if you look at this, Muslim religion, it came in existence about thirteen-fourteen hundred years ago. If we look at the Christians, that came about two thousand five hundred years ago. But, this Hindu Dharma is quite before that and this all religion came out from there, from the main points from them. And that is why I like Hinduism, because it has got broader base, Hindus believe in death after birth and birth after death. Reincarnation. Reincarnation. And that is why, they have got some sort of, fear in the mind that if we do something wrong. We will go down. And that is why they always try to help others, be good, honest and religion is the truth. They believe in truth. Do you think today that the youth, the Hindu youth, do you think that they follow as much as maybe, you did when you were as, young? Well, I am, they are not against it, let me say that way. They are not with us all the time, but they are not against that sort of thing because they do not know the basic value of that ritual. Once they know it, I am sure, they will follow or they will come with, join it. But, to make them understand it is not very easy. In the olden days, when parents say to a child, you go to temple, they do not ask questions, why I go to temple, they go. But nowadays, when we say children, you go to temple or you read this book, they says, why, what for? Then we have to explain them. Do you think it is good that they ask 'what'? Well, they ask. Do you think it is good that they question though? Well, it is good because they should know. Yeah. They do not want to follow blindly anything. Because as I said, if they know, what is that, they will join. Then they will see the benefit of that thing. Because even here, in this country, I think, all the houses has got some sort of, a religious thoughts in their houses. Because old people, they have some temples, we got some Krishna Murtis here. So they all follow that, they know something about it, so they are not out of the touch at all. Our saints comes from the overseas, like Morari Bapu, Kanubhai, Mataji, they tells us so many things, but the, again problem is that, this children, who born here or brought up here, they have lost their own language. They do not understand their own language properly. So we are trying, we have got night schools for our own language. But still, it is not enough. Why do you think it is so important for them to know the language? I think, language is the main thing in the world. The feeling, which I have to explain you, I cannot explain you in English, as I can explain in my own language and that is what it is. Language is important because if you do not have a language, you will never know your own religion. If you do not know your religion, you will lose your identity as well. So you think, the key to, them understanding Hinduism, probably is to learn? It is very important for our youngsters to learn the language and take interest in the religion. I mean, as I said, religion is a, Hindu religion is quite broad. It is not narrowed for certain thing only. It accepts everyone, who believe or not believe, but there is nothing wrong to learn about it. If you do not think it is good for you, just forget it. But if you think it helps you somewhere, I tell you one thing, I have learnt somewhere or heard somewhere, it was a report from a University or some, someone, that religious minded people are less violent and they are not in the crime as others. So that means religion helps the people, any religion, because nowhere religion says bad. If any religion says to kill someone, then that is not a religion. All the religion says help each other. Non-violent. So whoever, he believes in the God or religion, they are non violent. Do you have a family Guru that you follow? Well, with me as I, I did not had time to choose a Guru. But I have got my Hanumanji Maharaj as my Guru. Whenever I have problem, I just sit against, before him and my problem is solved. He gives me some indication, I didn't know. Well, another thing about God and Goddesses, I will tell you something about Shiv, all right. Why, I , we can say Shiv is a God? First of all, he had no segregation or discrimination among animals and humans. Because he transplanted a elephant head on his own son's body. So he had no segregation. He was a big scientist or big, a surgeon because he plant, transplanted the head of elephant on human body without checking blood levels, right? Yeah. So what sort of surgeon he was? True. What sort of surgeon he was? Amazing! So he was a great, he is God. Well, Rama was reincarnation of God because, he, who helped him, if you have learnt about his life, monkeys, birds, Jattayu was a bird, trees, so he had no segregation. He was, everything was excellent for him. He is, all his own creation. True. Do you have, like you got these beautiful Murtis of Radha Krishna, are they your family, are they the deities that you worship? That is right. As your family, they are your main? That is right. But then you have Hanuman also to help you. Yes. Okay. Well, this a great question again. Even lots of people asking that, so many Gods and you say wish one God, why is that, how you can explain that? So, I tell you one thing, these are the reincarnation of God. They are God, they have got all the capacity of God and the, they have not done anything wrong, they have always taught us something, Krishna, if you have read Gita or gone through it, it is clearly said, it is not for Hindus, for whole world, how the life should go and what is going to be after the death? I mean, it is open to everyone. It is not for Hindus only, no. Krishna's life was a message to the world, not for Hindus. Everyone has to learn from his life. He was a great politician, he was a great warrior, he was a great musician, everything. He is a great family man. He had a huge family. He was a great husband, he was a great friend, see Sudama and Krishna, everything. He taught, says us, that you are all friends, you are a whole family, whole world is a family. That is what he said. And why this all different opinions? Well, if you do not believe in Krishna, do not criticize, he says. If a woman goes to a family with marriage, is married to her husband, of course, her duty, first duty is to her husband, but her duty is to her the, in-laws, sister-in-laws, to give them a respect and stay nicely. Otherwise, there will be a problem in the family. Even what a, how much love they have got each other, with husband and wife, but there will be some problem. So they have to respect everyone in the house. So if you do not believe Krishna, then forget it. If you are believing in Ram, pray to him. But do not criticize others. And that is why all the Hindus will never criticize any other religion, never. Of course, they believe in one thing but they do not criticize others. Do they see the other religions as, I have heard some people say, I do not know if you think the same thing, the other religions are seen as, a just a different path to the same place, like just a different, a different route? They recognize that, everybody who is practicing that they are just practicing other religions as well, do you, that they are going to, there is only one God so? Well, this Hindu religion is divided in so many other Parivars, means families I should say. Parivar, means families or else, a group for certain people. But still they believes in the Hinduism, though their religion different. Suppose Jains or Sikhs, but they are from the Hindu religion, they know that and they still respect the Hindu religion. Okay, I see. Do you think it is easier now to practice Hinduism, like in Leicester in? Well, I think it is easy. It is not hard. Because there is no restriction, as I said you before. There is no restriction. Do you think it is more acceptable within the wider communities? Well, of course in Leicester itself, there is more than two hundred thousand people, believes in Hindu religion, more than two hundred thousand people. Yeah, absolutely. It is estimate. I am not sure. Okay. And where do you, this kind of moving on slightly now from the whole, from the actual practice of religion to your identity as a person then, because you are Hindu, but you are born in Africa, but you have lived in the U.K for such a long time. I mean how do you identify yourself now? Well, let me tell you one thing, of course, we are Indians, we, I born in Kenya, but now my responsibility also lies to the country where I am, the whose citizen I have accepted and who has accepted me as their citizens. So our responsibility lies here. Though we do not go away from our culture or tradition or education, but at the same time we have to be faithful to our country, where we live. So would you call yourself a British Hindu or what would you call yourself? Well, I call myself Hindu. But I am British as well. But does not mean I have got to call myself British Hindu, no Hindu is Hindu. But I am British. So one thing, there are so many people, eats and drinks alcohol or eats meat, but still they are Hindus. But they do not have to say that, I am Vegetarian Hindu, no. So I am British. I am proud of being a British But you separate, separate things but the same. Yeah, but I am a Hindu. So I do not think we have to call ourself a British Hindu. I do not see any point in, myself. I do not know whether anybody else then, I do not have to say anything about it. I do not object it. Yeah. And where do you see as home now, because you have lived in Africa for so long and you have lived here for so long, in your heart, where is home or even, it maybe India, because you have, you know your pre, you know, other generations are from India? Well, if you call, my family likes to be here. But as my childhood has been in Africa, I got love with that country. I love to go back and see them because childhood is a different thing. I do not know whether it is with everyone, but with so many peoples I have heard, they can remember whatever is happened in their childhood, but they will not remember what is happened in the middle age. So child is a different thing you cannot forget it, you love it. So do you see Africa then as your home? Well, I like to go and see them there, yeah. Do you go often to Africa? But my family again is here. So what can I go and do there? Nothing. No attraction at all there. Except I love that country because I born there, my birth country. Okay. And finally then, because this will be heard by future generations, people doing research or things like that. Is there? Well, I will be happy if it helps anyone, yes, of course. Yeah, is there any final message that you would like to give to people who will be listening in the future? Well, I would like to say that, the religion is only way of life. We should not fight for religion, no, no quarrel for religion. Be one, be happy, help each other and specially, to our younger generation, take some interest in the religion, in your language and in your family, respect them. Today, problem is that our younger generation, do not respect the others as it used to be before. So I will say them, 'please go back to that life. It is good life.' Yeah, that is all. Okay, thank you.