cultural shock, culture, Hinduism 17th December, 2003 sound Sound Cassette English Abhijeet Joshi Oral Interview Interview 057 Nisha Tandon 45 46 New Delhi

Belfast U.K. B.A. in History, National School of Drama volunteer for the Indian Community Center EN Hindi, English I would like to start off with just your family background, where were your parents born, were they born in India or? Okay. My parents originally were born in Pakistan, Lahore. They were born, brought up there. And my father's first half of the education was all in Pakistan. And, but though their marriage took place in India. They had to move from you know, the partition period, 1947, you know, that time, they moved. They had to go, leave their homes and come to India. So they settled, my father settled in Shimla, you know, which is quite close to Punjab and my mother's family settled more in the middle of India, which is called Uttar Pradesh. She was, her education and everything was from there. Her parents came from that background. But they both were originally from Pakistan. From Pakistan. Yeah. Okay and then when they were married and did your father come to? Yeah, they, when they got married then they settled in Delhi because my father's job was in Delhi. Okay, what was your father's job? He was, well, he was a Manager, first of all just a Manager for National Grindlays Bank you know, which was the first, what we have had, British or European Bank opened in India, but all the time you would have heard about Punjab National Bank or this Bank or the other Bank of India. That was the first International Bank opened in India and he was the Manager that time, then he was promoted up to very high scale. Yeah. And my schooling, my education is all from Delhi. All right, okay. Yeah and then got married. That was arranged marriage and we came and settled in Belfast. Okay. Can I just back track a little bit, did your parents tell you many stories about you know, when division happened and things like that. What were their experiences at that time? Yeah, but I think my mom was too young to remember you know, well, not too young to remember as such, but just sort of, didn't want to have the memories but they, because they were all bad memories you know, of leaving and all those sort of, things, leaving your home and your good facilities behind and coming home with just, like one suitcase. That's what she used to say, you know, one suitcase and the whole family sort of, stayed in together you know, so that they don't disappear. Because my mom had, my mom's family is quite a big, large family but that time, when the partition took place, they were only three brothers and sisters, but uncles and aunts and everybody had to vacate as well, so they all sort of, stayed together so they don't disappear or get lost. Actually, one of my dad, my great grandfather's brother, he was, he disappeared you know, they never could find him, where, what happened to him you know, still they never could find him you know, but probably was killed or dead, whatever, I don't. So there were good memories of Pakistan as well and there were very bad memories too, of leaving home and lot of bloodshed and all that sort of, stuff. They watched it all, they seen it all. They saw everything, yeah. Yeah, they seen it all. Yeah. And so then you are educated in Delhi. How far did you go with your education then? I did all my schooling and I did my College there as well. I was in, doing History, B.A. you know, B.A. Honors but I didn't finish it as such, because of, the marriage happened before that. But I did do my Hindi. All right. In it, I did my National School of Drama as well, my two years in that, yeah. Okay. So what was? So I did three subjects you see. Yeah. Hindi, National School of Drama and History you know. Okay. What was it like growing up in Delhi because you know, it is quite nice, it's a nice city, it's a big city? Oh brilliant, yeah. What are your memories from there? Oh, very good. Yeah. Very-very good you know, childhood was just amazed. But it was a cultural shock when I came here to Belfast you know. Did you come straight to Belfast, yeah? Straight to Belfast and it just, was just was not on you know, it was just totally-totally different way of living, way of life, way of, everything was different you know. How old were you? I was only eighteen. So you were very young. Yeah. Eighteen, when I got engaged and nineteen, when we got married. So was very-very young you know, to, even to know the real value of life and all that you know, because you just are too young to be settled at that time and I wanted to finish my education definitely and my mom wanted me to finish. But my dad was, always wanting to say, 'No, it's okay.' As you know in some, in Indian culture there is still some parents, they still do exist and they say no for a girl of eighteen or the moment she becomes eighteen they want her to be, forgetting about real studies and go and do what the parents ask them to do specially when it is a very male dominating country you know, so that that's what it was. What was it like then, did you travel over on your own or did you come, did you fly over with your husband or? No, actually my dad's brother, he moved away from India, in 1960 after his education and his college and all that, just for better prospect of you know, job, better money, better everything, you know. So they, he moved away from India and he was settled in Birmingham from 1960 and decided, my parents decided, 'All right, okay, we will go and visit and see whole of Europe and we will go to our last resort will be my uncle's house and we will just stay and go and meet him and all those sort of thing. Normally he used to come to India but never got opportunity for us to come here so that was, we were all here whenever my engagement and all those sort of, things took place. They happened in Birmingham? It happened in Birmingham, yeah. And then I went back home. That was in 1976, went back home, then I got married in 1977. And was the wedding in? The wedding was in India. His parents and him, went to India. So when you came back then you came straight to Belfast? Straight to Belfast, yes. So your husband, he was working here. Yeah, he is a. Was he established or? Yeah, not really. I think, he was only about twenty-five and I think he only had started his teaching career. I think it was first year, second year of his teaching career, yeah. So he is a teacher? He is a teacher, yeah. All right, okay. So what were the early days like then of Belfast? Because I mean there would not have been such a large Hindu community or? No, the only Hindu community I knew was my in-laws. And that's about it. I didn't have any friends; I didn't have anything because the local people, who were your friends, who you had to make your friends because you, you know, without friends you just cannot have life and you know, you have to get out and you know do all that, though your culture where you are coming from, you were brought up in such a society that, you know, your school friends, your relatives, your family everything was so close you know, because India, that is the bond they had. Whenever you come to a different country, you have to start from absolutely scratch everything and that was one of the snags, but had been brought up in, if I wasn't brought up in India, I would not have that nerve to do it you know, so had to make new friends. There was no Indian friends. So how did you go about then, making these new friends? Did you join clubs or something? Yeah. Because as you know my husband was only a School Teacher and when I got married, we didn't even have a home to live in you know, so we were sharing our home, well, we were sharing, we were given a room by my mother and, brother and sister-in-law and was sharing with her but unfortunately you know, wanted something of your own, so to get something of your own, you had to either go into education, which I started to look for, the moment I came in the country and then started looking for a job and I was very-very lucky. I came in the country in 19 August 1977 and I went into a course in September, started a course in September and then I went and looked for a job and end of September I had a job you know. But it wasn't really a high-flashing thing you know, it was working just a hairdresser, because hairdresser you can get, but that was my stepping-stone. Right, to meet your college. Going to meet your College and going into a job place, where you know, you working maybe three times a day or three times in a week or whatever but you had you know, opportunity to talk to people and get to know them too and they want to know about us, so that's how we started to know people. So what did you do for say you know, like Indian groceries or you know, any small things, money for your Pooja or for anything like that, what did you do? Yeah, at that time I was not Vegetarian. Okay? I, it was not a problem and I did not mind living on English food but then my aunt, actually, who was in Birmingham, she used to parcel me over the stuff you know, on monthly basis. Spices or something like that. Some spices and you know, few bits of lentils and I started to go to her as well. But obviously I could not afford to go by Air so whenever Friday come you know, your job, Friday afternoon, whenever you finished your job, you take ferry over, even then, overnight ferry, go on Saturday, stay there on Saturday and come back on Sunday. And then start back on, work on Monday morning you know. But I was doing that for a couple of years but maybe basically going like once a month or two, like that. Just to visit because I was so homesick and you could not afford, you could not even think of going to India those days you know, because everything seemed so expensive. At the minute we don't have value for money you know, because if you want to go to India or come out with your Visa Card and you can go with no problem you know, pay later, buy now and pay later, everything. But in those days you couldn't. Because you were earning and you were sort of, you know, putting your money aside to get a better home and better something you know, so it was just. What did the community do those days then, for like festivals like Janmasthami or Diwali or things like that? Yeah, there was something because as you know that the Indians here came in 1940's as well you know, forty-seven, the earliest Indians came at those time and they made a small Association of, like ten, fifteen families, and they used to gather. Right? But those ten, fifteen families now have started to expand you know, and how are they going to do all those festivals and religious things in people's homes because that's what they were doing. They were going to each other's homes and doing Diwali celebration and all fifteen families will get together in one home, something like that was happening. But as the families grew, they were getting married and they had then, you know, it was growing more and more. Then there was a need for a Center or a worship place so, these key fifteen families got together and bought this building, which we are sitting in and this came on board 1981. The building was officially bought in 1979 but then it just took that long for the paper work and all those because it is a listed building. So it took that long for them to get this all made to the standards of our own needs and we made a worship place in here, the temple. At that time it was only a temple. It was not a Community Center. So there was a place now for people to come, gather, worship and socialize you know, and from that onwards, from 1981 onwards, then they started to put a little bit of like a Community Center awareness as well, where there will be somebody here on voluntary basis or something like that to open the door for people to come in whenever they want to do you know, they want to go for Visa or they want to go for this, they want to go for that, how to go, because there were certain people who had English or no English you know, and to help them, to serve them and to be more in the local society as well. Those are the things, which started to take place. Yeah. So you seem very involved in the Community Center at the moment. How did that come about? Yeah, in 1981, whenever the inauguration of our temple took place, we did little bit of religious things as well and I, coming from a background of drama, dance and all those so it was, we did quite lot of things together and then they said. 'You are the type of people we are really looking for, we can do something for our kids.' So I started to, with one of my friend, who was a Japanese girl, was here doing dance and going to University. She was a lecturer. So we started to put something together, both of us and started to run Children's Club on Saturday mornings and we were here basically all day on Saturday, doing things for kids and that is how I started to get involved and I think I basically I would say that I was a volunteer for about, oh, twenty, odd twenty years and this is my from last four months, six months I have got the job. I was employed you know, as one of the girls was leaving. So I took her spot. Because I was running the business sound, the business was not doing what I wanted it to do and it was just sort of, taking too much pressure, too much stress. So thought, 'Okay.' The committee approached me to say that this is going to happen. Do you feel that you are capable of coming? I said, well, I can give you my C.V. and you can look around and, but before that I have been involved in Local community promoting our Indian culture in many ways you know, doing lot of Radio, T.V. programs and things like that. So they said, 'Yeah, why not?' So that's how I came about and but I have been volunteer for the Indian Community Center for nearly twenty years now. Okay. Just moving on now, because you were obviously involved a lot with all the community work, I want to ask you now about your own personal religious practices you know, traditional things that come through your family and also things that developed for yourself personally, if you can tell me a little bit about those beliefs. Yeah I, actually, in early stages of my life, I was never ever religious you know, I just wasn't into it at all. Well, I was but not in a big way, like I would see my mother getting up and doing her prayers and doing all those sort of things. My mom and all that are, they are not very religious you know. They do believe but they do not believe it in an extent but they have to celebrate each and everyday in a festive manner you know, which the Hindu calendar, if you would see, there are so many, my God, they have the cold ones and then you know that they are into the ones, which the whole entire community will practice, so those are the key ones you know, they would do those and that's what. My dad was actually not religious at all. So my mom and my granny, I have seen them being social. I learnt from them. But whenever I came to Northern Ireland, I started to get involved in the temple bit of here. I find that everybody was so religious you know, and it was just everything, everyday life was the religion here. And I said to myself, 'Is it right or is it not right?' But I started to take the good points out of it and started to practice those. Till then I had started to practice, but I don't take religion as a big thing. I am very proud to say that I am a Hindu and I do worship and I practice the teachings of Hinduism but what I am, I am and I will not and I will very openly talk about Hinduism, with a open mind you know, but I would not say that one is Guru and one should not pick you know, no way. It is what you are and what you believe in and that is the way I would keep. But again, I do not celebrate everyday in the Hindu calendar. You know some people, this day and ages while living in this country are doing it, their life rotates. If the Sun is out, the moon is down fasting for this, fasting for that you know, I don't believe in that and I don't allow my children to believe in that as well. Do you, does your family have a Guru or a specific Murti that they worship or anything? They don't have a Guru, no, but my mom would be a believer of all, okay. But we are strong believers of Durga you know, so we do, and Krishna. Okay. And Diwali, as you know everybody celebrates, so. Yeah. I just want to ask you some general questions about Hinduism, the caste issue comes up you know, regularly issues about that, do you? That's 'loads' of. Do you think that, that is, it is kind of, fading out now, issues of caste or marrying into certain families or things like that? Do you think that is important? Yeah, it is happening in modern days now yeah. The Caste is still, the Caste, system plays a big important role but only in that generation. The new generation, it doesn't you know, and new generation is very-very sort of, assertive and knows and motivated in their own ways and they know what they want. So, now a days the love of your life plays more important role than the Caste System you know. Arranged marriages are there, they are fading away as well. So that's what is happening. But yes, it is a very-very big feeling. A very big move as well for a Hindu to get married to a Muslim you know, or a Muslim to get married to a Hindu. That is, that will always be a big issue because they are two different religions. But within a Hindu, a caste system, it doesn't really matter. And what about the youths of today, do you think that they are more or less religious than say when you were a teenager? No, they are not. You don't think. Why do you think that? Because, if you are saying youth of today, born and brought up in U.K., yeah, they are not. First of all, I would say, parents are the ones I believe, blame for that because whenever they came here, they came with one intention and that intention was the make money and they were very business oriented. So they left, specially Northern Ireland, I am talking about Northern Ireland perspective here, they did sort of, not play much important role for religion at all and their kids were born and brought up in an environment, which was totally local culture and now the, that generation, which is grown up is totally, not Hindus at all. They are color Hindus, they are you know, that their color is different but their beliefs are so local and what is happened is then, the second, third generation, which is come, the girls have come or the boys have come from India, all right, and the girls who have come to marry to the local subject, they had only do so much. Right? They are trying to preserve you know, but still the kids were born and brought up, they are, very little Hinduism being taught or told about. Even in our temple, we do not have a Priest, who can speak both languages and preach Hinduism, give teaching classes and do all those sort of, things to our children. And you do things like that in a theoretical way but it is not always right to do things like that. So they have lost, the third generation is totally lost because again they have been born and brought up; they have more local friends than what they would have otherwise. And that is there. So it is not lost from this generation, it is lost from your second generation, third generation. Third generation now is getting married to more of people born and brought up you know, local, mix marriages, which is then also taking the diminishing role of Hinduism. Definitely is happening and it is going to happen more and more, until we start to preserve it and do something about it. Do you think it is important for the youth to, maybe learn their mother tongue? Do you think that is important? I think it is very important. That is part of your culture. But we are not doing that again. Why we are not doing that, again is that second generation, only one member of the family can speak proper mother tongue. Could be the girl brought from India or a boy brought from India, okay, they can speak. But they are trying their best to preserve that with their children. But it is not happening you know, because the kids feel that, no dad can speak or mom can speak, why should we be speaking? So we are lost again there. It is sad but it is happening. Though we learn, we have a language class, which goes on here on every Sunday you know, and only a handful of children come. Just a couple of final questions then. How do you identify yourself now because you are an Indian, born in India, lived in Northern Island for considerable amount of time, practicing Hindu, if somebody is to ask you, you know what is your identity now? What do you say? I am a Hindu. I am Indian. A very big 'Yes' for that. I am definitely a Hindu in my ways, in my beliefs and everything as I said to you. But I preach as much as I can, my religion and I tell my children about it as well because my kids can speak both languages, Hindi and Punjabi and they know what are the rights and wrongs of Hinduism. They don't practice Hinduism but they do celebrate whatever my religious events are, the key events, which I do, festivals at home. They do understand, they do celebrate and they are also proud to be Indian. But they don't associate outside their own four walls that their identity is Indian because they have lost that identity you know. By color, yes, but with the Passport, no. So we are lost there. Yeah. And where do you see as home? I would say, I would, whenever I would say, 'I am going back, I am going back home.' And that is India. And I have always said to myself that I will serve and I will live and I will do whatever I have to do here because obviously my partner is here you know, my children are here but I have all my intention that I'll go back and settle in India. I would just love to do that and I am just waiting for me to retire and I will go. Because my kids will be all settled and they will not, they will have either good jobs or marry to somebody or whatever, I mean, I don't know what going to be, Sonia, my oldest has got a good job, Natalie is working to it and Krishna is doing his G.C.S.E. So they will be settling in life. And once they are settled, I have nothing more to do. I want to do what I want to do after that. So at the minute, I am just sort of, family bind. But once my family is all settled, I have all the intentions of going back. Finally then, do you have any message for people, who will be listening to this interview in the future, either people doing research on Hinduism, Hindu beliefs or could be your future generations on, to hear something about you? Yeah, keep at it, keep at it, but not just the research side of thing but let us do more about to preserve our Hindu religion and Hindu culture and let us see how we can, lets make some issues that we can reach the youngsters, which is very important you know, because it is happening in Mainland, specially in Gujarati family, they are very-very good. They are preserving their Hindu culture and they are preserving there, you know, and I don't know how they do it, but I find in Punjabi people, it is diminishing. I don't know, maybe the Punjabis' themselves are very liberal in their ways of living and that's why or they are not true practitioners of Hinduism and that's why it is diminishing. I don't know. I don't have the right answer for that but that is my own opinion you know, on that. But I will do anything to preserve our religion and Hinduism. Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much. You are welcome.