Life in Middle East, Caste system, reincarnation, Hindu philosophy 25th July, 2004 sound Sound Cassette English Abhijeet Joshi Oral Interview Interview 060 Panchali Sharma Female Birmingham

U.K. University Education EN English I would just like to start off with a few questions about your background and your family background just to get an understanding of who you are and where you are kind of coming from? So, if you would start off by telling me where you are born yourself? I was born in Birmingham in U.K. Okay. I lived here for about a year and half and then my family moved to Middle East. Okay and where is your family originally from? They are from Assam in India. Okay, so, where are your parents born? My parents were both born in Assam. And when did they come to the U.K. then? They came here in the seventies, the late seventies, they were both the only members of their family to sort of, travel to move outside of India and at that time they were unmarried. So, they were just living together as an unmarried couple, which in the Indian families was completely unheard of. But, they were in medical school and they both came here to kind of to finish their training and the plan was never to stay here. They just came here to earn money, send it back to educate my brothers and sisters. The plan was always to get back to India. Okay. But, it kind of got lost in the middle. When we moved to the Middle East, my dad was supposed to move there and me and my mom were supposed to move back to India but, there were all sort of problems. Okay. So, we lived in the Middle East for about six or seven years. Okay. Which country or was it you were traveling around or? We lived in the U.A.E. We lived in Sharjah and Abu Dhabi and my younger brother was born there. And then, we moved back when the Gulf War was mid flow. We moved back to Britain. And so, it was where we come in. I don't think, I am not sure if it would have been their choice to move back, yeah. But, circumstance kind of made that they have to move back. Do you think they might prefer to go to India or instead of coming here, if they had to move anywhere? Maybe, I am not sure because by that point I was, like me and my brother were both in English schools in Middle East. So, it was definitely kind of pushed along by circumstances. So, did your parents ever tell you much about what was it like for them actually coming to the U.K and settling here? Because you said they came as medical students. Yeah. Okay so, I guess life as students is slightly different coming like you have a family and, you know, that's, it's kind of may be little, it's I don't know, but, did they ever tell you much about? They never really talked about it. The only reason I ever found out was because of projects in school. We have to like, trace your family history and how far your family have like moved and stuff. And then, that's when you find out your parents have actually lived in like seven or eight different places in the country. They have got a job in this hospital, then they moved to different one, they moved down to Africa and stuff like that. Okay. They tend not like just tell me it's more kind of questioning and asking. Yeah. They don't say, oh it was like this and you have to read again? No. Okay. But, they were like, I can gather everyone at that time who were their friends then. If one was single, and everyone had come over with the same, everyone who had come over from India then, come over with the same aim of doing training then go back to India. Then go back, but they are all still here right? They are all still here, yeah they have got kids growing now and. Okay. So, what was it like for you growing up in, you know, I don't remember, I mean is that mainly a Muslim country or it's a--? It's a Muslim country. They are quite, even I mean, if you have I mean, if you have got licenses and stuff, then you can like have alcohol and stuff like that but, during Ramadan, they won't allow to eat out on the street and stuff like that. And basically if you are law abiding you will be fine. But, I questioned my parents, few years later after moving here, why I have never got taught my religion as a kid? And it's because you are not actually allowed to take any religious material into the country. So, anything that they did have, it was kind of made by jewelers that they knew well and you know, wouldn't mind making things for them and wouldn't get into much trouble. So, like until the age of seven or eight, till we moved back here I didn't really know anything about my religion. And you said that you went to an English, an English school, an English speaking school. Yeah. What was that like, in comparison maybe with other schools then, that would have been there at that time? Did you know, did you speak to other children around? You went to different schools or? The school I went to was based on British School System but, then there were other schools that were based on like, the American School System, European System. So, they were all very similar and they were all full of like expatriate children, a very self contained community. So, then you moved back here then, what you were seven or eight? Yeah. Is that? And where did you move to, you came back? We moved back to Birmingham. My dad had like, kept a house here just in case anything should have happened. And so, we moved back here and it was strange like moving your whole life. We really didn't want to like move here because it's a cold country. Was that, were you, the big thing? The first day of school, there was like fog everywhere. And we can't see and it was like, no, where have I come to? But, yeah, I mean, where is, like there you can very much tell it was a Muslim country because everyday prayer times, all the T.V. stations would flicker it to you, the Call to prayer, you could tell the difference here because there wasn't a Mosque on every corner, say there is like Church on every corner. So, it was kind of like, okay, for I mean, you are from one to the other. So, then when you came back here, it was obliviously fear for your parents to practice Hinduism. So, did you notice a change in like, the family's rituals or family's routine and all? Yeah, well, we started going to the temple. We were not like, we are most devout Hindus anyway really, but we do try like once a month as a family to go to the temple. So, we would make an effort to go out because before there was nowhere you could go so, you couldn't even attempt to do something like that. So, yeah, you did notice that you know, you go to the temple and it wasn't just a temple it was a people you meet in the temple, would have like Pujas in their own house so they would invite you to that so, you to been to Pujas in peoples' houses, things like that. And may be when you younger, you don't really understand the meaning behind things and you feel like just like, got to go because your parent are going and, but, do you find that over the years that may be, you may be developed an understanding of why people do these things or do you feel that you, yourself have developed an understanding behind the, you know, the going to the temple, going to the houses to do Puja, these things? Yeah, I don't really, I still don't really understand the rituals but, I have kind of just accepted that as a given. There was one, I mean, I have taken up our Pujas with one priest who, he used to explain everything in English. But, generally, you just kind of accept that you don't understand. But, my parents have the same kind of attitude devoted because they keep telling me that this is not how they do things, you know, in Assam, like the Hindu rituals there much simpler and there is not all this and this and they are like partly complicated here. So, they really didn't understand it themselves. Okay. But, I am not, I don't know, I tend not to be that worried about understanding it, because they are not worried, I am not worried really. Okay, as you kind of, went through your education, are you in college now or you in university? I am in University. You are in University. Yeah. Do you find that as you kind of, going out of the family home you are interacting a lot more with, I am lack of any other word, the outside world, outside of the family home. Yeah. Family circle, have you come across issues that may be raise a conflict within yourself, between what your family have taught you with you know, Hindu values and then the kind of western side, which can be quite contrasting. Different issues that have risen, have you noticed that? Nothing. My family are quite open about everything, I mean, this, even with this youth group, are involved in, I know a lot of people who have talked to you and their point of view is completely opposed to mine. They were part of the same youth group, in same part of the world and. Like what kind of things would you be talking about? Things like, I think it's most of the cultural things than may be religious things, like someone was like, yeah I am having an arranged marriage and I still would look at them and I am like, 'what? ' My parents are like, 'no you are not doing an arranged marriage never.' Because I just don't, they don't understand because they haven't had it themselves. They are sort of like, no we are not going to do it for you and just how, I suppose, strict people are like those certain times when people are like, oh no, can't go to the temple because like I am not well whatever my parents are like well, temples are temples you know. Yeah. House of God, anyone should be welcomed there. So, there are a lot of different point of views, I find, I think that's just because people, some people are lot more traditional and I think my family and my relatives are a lot more. I hate saying like thinking the forward thinking but compared to what these people think. So yeah. That's for like the outside world sometimes it was a case of having to, sometimes I had to learn more about my religion you know, to defend. People were like, you have all these rituals and you have all these different Gods and not being able to explain to them why and then to saying, 'oh, well, you don't know anything do you?' It kind of forces you to go out and learn about your religion. So, actually you have a reason for this, you have a reason for that and I think and then speaking to my parents, my mom reckons I probably know more about Hindus than her, because I have just been forced to learn it, because they just kind of brought up with it and they didn't have to explain to anyone about anything because it was just, because everyone knew about. Do you think that now that the youth have started to ask more questions, like you said, you have to find out for yourself? Do you think that they are starting to ask the reasons why whereas maybe the previous generation? Yeah. Like you said it is going along with that? I think so. I think that we were lot more questioning, more interested in knowing why because we actually have to, there was an outside world, who are going to ask all these questions who are going to say, why you are doing this? Why you are doing that? So we do have this, whole like, defending it, I know, I think it's kind of sad in a way that we have to like, I see as a defense rather than, sort of educating people about my religion. It's more like defending themselves they don't think it's some crackpot thing. Until they say actually it's been going on for a long time, and it doesn't make sense to me but, it kind of, but what I can explain is one reason, another Hindu can explain it completely different way, and that kind of raises problems as well. Because there is this contrast even within. Yeah. And people would be like, well, you don't know your religion, do you? And it's like, well, actually we do. It's just that we have that freedom in our religion to express yourself as you wish to express self. And that's how I kind of see Hinduism as an, I can, there are all so many different schools of though on the philosophy and stuff, because I, my big interest is philosophy. And I love Hindu philosophy because it's --, when I studied like, Christianity and Islam and stuff in school, like philosophy was separate from religion and it was like, no they can't. Whereas, my religion allows me to makes prayer to them and there is no conflict between two. What you feel actually makes you a Hindu? What, you know, may be one or two things you feel that are actually the essence of what that makes you a Hindu? Yeah. It's hard to define because everyone is so different. I think the one. Just for yourself though, what do you feel? You identify with most of you know what I mean? Yeah, I think I am still kind of exploring all the life philosophies in different schools of thought that have come out of Hinduism and seeing how they were like logically constructed and agreeing with them and say, 'Yes, I understand that.' That's what I believe that makes sense to me and it coming from a school of thought that has as opposed to like, being rude to Christianity or Islam, isn't that, that makes me a Hindu. It's not. It's not the rituals it's not all pictures of Gods and the Goddesses and stuff like that. It's being able to say, 'I am looking for that true, that Sanatan Dharma, if until say I don't achieve.' And saying that, 'I can go about it my own way.' To, personally for me that's, I can't explain to anyone the rituals, the Gods. I can't tell you why one God is holding this and another God is holding that. But, that's like not the most important thing to me. The most important thing to me is finding out how to live my life for my religion and that's what I am reading about. Okay. And you mentioned that, this, the Hindu youth group is functioning in this temple. Can you tell me a little bit more about the reasons behind having a whole youth group and what do these, really get from that? It started about fifteen or sixteen years ago, when the founders of the temple decided that they wanted to educate their children about their own religion. So, they started in someone's house, just like giving talks on this is what this ritual means and this is what the Gods are about and these are the like, basic truths of Hinduism and stuff like that. And I think it's a good starting point for Hindu youth and I started coming when I was eight and at that age you cannot, you take a lot in. But, you are around people and you become friends to people. That encourages you to come back and eventually you get to a point where you actually do start listening to what people are saying, to discussions that are happening and it might not be you know, might not cover the whole span of things but, if you have no idea where to start, it gets you in touch with people, with groups who can teach you more, you can find out more from and decide if you do want to be a Hindu or not because I don't think, just that you are born a Hindu, you are a Hindu. I think it's like up to you whether you follow Hinduism or not. And in general now, do you feel that the youth today, the Hindu youth today do feel that they are more or less religious than say parent's generation? I think there are a lot of people who go to the temple because their parents go to the temple. They will go every week, purely because it's a family thing and it's a done thing, which is fine as long as you feel that you are getting something out of it. You are not just going because your parents are going there and you are seeing they are bored for three or four hours until you go home. And then, there are people like me who hardly ever go to the temple. Who manage maybe, once every two months, who I feel, I may be more Hindu than then because I am actually trying to understand my religion as opposed to just being surrounded by and not really taking in. But, I mean, at universities there are like groups, like Hindu groups and stuff like that but, it's not for everyone, I found out it wasn't for me because they have very fixed agenda and they are like, if you are a Hindu you do this and you do that and I am like it's a bit too closed for me. But, I think the youth are may be becoming lot more aware that they are having to find out because of the kind of society that we are living, it's not enough to just say that I am Hindu and I go to temple. People ask questions and if you can't answer the questions then it's difficult because people from other religions can. I mean, if you ask a Muslim what you do they been able to tell you. If you ask a Christian or a Jew, they will be able to tell you. But, I think people are slowly learning that, well, having to take an interest and can't just be a Hindu. Do your family still have family in Assam? Yeah, all of my aunts, uncles, cousins, everyone is in Assam. Okay. And you go to visit them? Yeah, every two or three years, I mean, quite often. So, what do you, you all have seen maybe a difference you know, from when you are child to now you know, may be how life has changed in Assam as well. But, do you feel that there may be sometimes there are conflicting values because sometimes it seem that the Hinduism in U.K are kind of staying still. A lot of them are just like holding on to the values that they took with them when they came here in sixties and seventies. Whereas in India they have progressed so much more and they have changed and may be become more westernized or whatever you want you call it. What do, have you picked up on that at all or have you noticed that? It's very much, the Hinduism that like my extended family practice is very much, the rituals they do, like they are very religious in that they believe that you have to do your prayers in the morning, you have to this, you have to, have to do this, it's inauspicious, they can't do this on this day, they have to wear like certain rings in certain fingers because it's like it brings good luck. They are very ritualistic about the religion that they practice. But then, they kind of carry on, they know more kind of western lives, just they've got someone to ever, boyfriends, girlfriends, etc and I kind of wonder if they have the opportunity to go out and learn anything else because it's kind of surrounding you all the time. Do you really think I have to go and find out because it's meant to be there but, I wouldn't have the first idea were to go in India to you know, find out thing different. Unless you went to like Sages and stuff like that but, there is no like schools as such because I think people expected to be in the family and understand. That you can just get everything from the family as well. Exactly. You can find everything out from your family. They will know everything about religion. If you have any questions, just go and ask them. I am not sure if it's like that because I see my aunts and my grand doing their prayers every morning properly and I see my cousin like doing a prayer for his car every morning you know. But, I don't know, it's different way in our house. My mom does like prayers in the morning for family and that will be it really. I mean recently since me and my brother both become involved in the youth group, my parents are sort of, becoming bit more religious. My mom goes to temple every Monday and she is like, spends the day there and we have like, we wear like, Ohm pendants and things like that and buy books and read different books by like different Swamis and stuff like that. But, I can't really see it happening in India. Okay. They have stopped maybe having that I think it's partially because it's like all around them. Yeah. May be taken for granted or something that it's just given, yeah. Yeah, it's there it's kind of, it's already imbedded in society. So, if you want to go you have to actively search out someone to teach you as opposed to like, we have so, many different institutions here who you can go to if you got no idea where to start, like -- other organizations you know, wouldn't have any idea there because there is no such thing as like youth groups and temples. Because the temple is run by the priests you know and people give donations and it keeps running you, the only people you see in the temple are the priests as opposed to here, that this temple has trustees, patrons, it's got like, several different committees, volunteer committees, someone to do the cooking, youth group. It's, this is more like a community, I think and there temples are more kind of like just temples as places of worship. Okay. What about the things like Karma or reincarnation, the kind of, the behind the scenes of the Hindu philosophy and you have studied philosophy yourself? So, you know, well up and all these kinds of things but do they actually, do you feel that they play an active part in your life? Were you kind of aware of them, you know, doing good things and doing bad things do they affect that? I think, everyone's very aware of them. Everyone like knows that reincarnation is going to happen and Karma is there and I think Karma is like a verb that's kind of coming to the western world as well. So, it's not just there for us, everyone's like oh, that's your Karma that's coming around to get you now. So, like your Karma can't get away from you really. It is very much there. I think is, the big issues are like definitely there all time but, I suppose it depends on how much time you kind of take it out of your day to think about it and if I am honest, I don't really think about Karma and reincarnation unless I can hear it somewhere, unless someone says can be a reincarnation. But, hopefully I have kind of got into the practice of doing the right thing so I don't have to worry about that, I am fine. No, that's what is like, what you are trying to do, you are trying to be good Hindus, try you know, do the right thing. So, I don't think that I can actively think about it all the time. If someone asks you, yeah I believe in that but it's trying to figure out ways to live your life as a good Hindu. So, you don't have to worry about these things. Okay. What about at the ends? At the end of it all, at the end of the life, at the end of the cycle or whatever, what do you actually believe will happen to you or what do you want to happen to you? Sometimes I think to myself, you are too young to think about these kind of things because they are like proper big, it's like what's going to happen, well, your rich enlightenment was so, we will become free and then what? And it's like, okay, that's just as a tough question as how did the universe start? I think I kind of, there were certain things like that about, I just kind of accepted that, yes you know, the end of the cycle of reincarnation is all to liberate but the thought hasn't gone any further. And I don't know what, I think it's just, you keep telling this, there are more important things to worry about, exams coming up and I have got this to worry about and that to worry about, and I think things like the youth going to concentrate mind back on Hinduism once in a while. What about things like, say the Caste system for example or arranged marriages or things issues like, I mean you touched on arranged marriages earlier but, do you think that they are dying right now with this, you know, with your generation that are born in the U.K or growing up in the U.K? Do your think that these kind of things are dying out or people are still identifying with issues like that? I have always thought that they were dying out because like my parents it was, but with my caste system gone, it go completely twisted and something that wasn't meant to be and I was like okay fair enough and then I kind of go out to the wide world, to university and it kind of shocked me that people were asking other people what there surnames were, working out with the caste world and saying can't associate with you because of your Caste and I was like 'what?' you know, it's like, it doest not apply here. Really? People are still doing that and I am like, 'what', 'why' you know. First of it kind of got, it was you know, Caste is supposed to be here like, you're what you did but, it wasn't that you were born into it. It was that, that's what you became that was, with your job like, just because like if you born into like the Brahmin Caste didn't mean that, I mean if you are female, no, you couldn't be a priest, could you? So, that means you would be something else and it sounds to me that people are still doings things like that and I am like, 'but why?' It doesn't have any bearing on your life here you know, here it's all, what kind of job you get afterwards? How much money you earn? Whether you can support yourself and your family? And it's sad that, I think there are still, I think it's may be, I don't know, I was going to say like, you were saying earlier that like, some Hindu families are like, seem to be holding on to tradition but, there are still quite a lot of Indians coming here from India, first generation people and they all still have those kind of thoughts. It's hard to say but, this group of people don't have those kind of thoughts and that group people do, because it's not like that people who I thought would never have these kind of thoughts have turned around and said, 'Oh no, I believe in this.' And I am like 'what?' I think it really depends on, I mean for our generation, second generation, I think it depends on how open your family are and how much you been allowed to, how much freedom you been allowed to have as a child to go out and do what you want and like, whether you have that kind of respect for your parents. It's hard to say you know, this group people do and this group don't. It's just an individual thing. Yeah, it is. Okay. How important do you feel that it is for Hindus to stick together? Yeah. That's the word I was coming to. Stick together with regards to staying in touch on international basis, different groups you know, kind of knowing what people are doing around the world because like communications are so much easy now, obviously there is this telephone, there is the internet. It's so easy to just cross continents and find out what everybody's doing and I mean within the U.K there has been moves to bring on Hindu youth together but, what about on an international level as well, do you think that it is important or? I think it is difficult. I don't know whether it's important or not because they are so many different ways of thinking in Hinduism and there are so many different ways of practicing, it will be hard to kind of get on together and say, yeah, you know, get one to agree on anything. And also at home some people are stuck in the past and people are moving the forward. Hinduism is like, I think like it all the kind of major religions in the world is kind of, one has made the most problems because it doesn't have like a founder, sort of it doesn't have like someone who can say, 'Oh yes, I am descendent from this person and then therefore,' you know, I am setting up this institute and we are a very spread out bunch. We do have no leadership really. Although on like local level we have those leadership but, I think it's hard at an international level to get that kind of leadership. I went to, a couple of weeks ago, I went to the World Forum of Religion and there were all these, there were lots of like Hindu Swamis from all over the world and stuff and, but, I don't know like how many of them talked to each other because they all were came with their own agendas, kind of like some people were trying to promote like, Save Water Projects and this and that and the other and at the end of day I don't know how many of them, I mean there was one night when everyone got together but, it was, it seemed kind of strange to have everyone together and wondering just because you are not used to it. Yeah, and you know that everybody is so different I guess. Yeah, exactly. It's kind of like, we all have the same roots because we all do, not same roots but, sometimes people lose sight of that, it's like, okay, that's the only thing we have in common that's believe in those are all different but, I think may be generally if you wanted to promote Hinduism and to say these are the basic truths and show that these are all the different ways of thought then, yeah, we have really good idea but, question is how, who would lead it and would one be like say you shouldn't lead it, we should lead it. It's just. You know, little kind of problems then. That kind of leads me on to another question actually, with regard to Gurus or family Gurus, did your family either in Assam or when they came to the U.K did they have anybody that they would recognize as family Guru that they would go to for spiritual guidance? We, as far as I know, we have never had anyone in Assam; we have never had anyone here. What about yourself personally, how would you feel about the whole? Actually, it's kind of outcome itself because it's never been like a thing in my life. We have never had I mean, I know families who do have a Guru, go and see Guru like and like wait there till like the Guru said something to them and like I find it really an odd concept, that like one person is like guiding your whole life and everything is hanging on their word and if he say do this, you go and do it. It's kind of like, to me I feel sometimes that you know, thinking for yourself. May be if you need guidance fair enough but, I think sometimes it can go a step too far, they can just be like, well, they told me to do that and I am doing but, why are you doing? I don't know but they told me to. That's like a step too far I think. So, I just never had that experienced. Just a couple of final questions now, how do you identify yourself today because you know, you are born in Britain, British but, do you find that sometime, you know, what do you actually identify with, yourself? Do you identify with the Hindu side, with the British side or the Indian roots? You know what I mean. I have had a many alternatives people lived with. People telling me what I should and should not be and I think it at the end of the day it's up to each individual. Someone told me once that I should be Assamese first, then Indian, then Hindu, then British and I was like, 'well, why?' Like well, because your parents are Assamese and I am like, 'but that's my parents. This is me I am my own person.' Someone else had to got me for introducing myself by saying, my parents were Indian instead of saying I am Indian. But, I was like if I say, 'I am Indian', that makes the question, 'Where in India do you live?' And I am quite happy with the whole British Indian or the British Hindu thing. I am a British first. I have been British all my life. It's the country that is providing me shelter, that's going to look after me you know. And, yeah, I mean, I don't understand why people have such issues identifying with the country that they live in you know, because we are not living in that much cultural Britain. I prefer to live in a multi cultural Britain then several other countries that are like actually, we are binding this and we are binding that, in order to make it secular. Whereas Britain is like, actually, it's fine so much practice your religion, like you know, in your way and you do to maintain harmony on earth, so yeah. Okay. Finally now then, do you have any final thought or final message that you would like to give to people who would be listening in the future? Wow, what a good question! Really I think, it's more kind of like, find your own path. Don't get pushed along by people saying, 'this the way to do it and that's the only way to do it and if you don't do it that way then you are not Hindu, you are not, whatever religion you are.' Or if you choose not to have a religion or if you are Humanist or something, you have to follow your own path than and, even towards family and stuff because you can't keep living like someone else's life and go and live in someone else's shadow, so you got to find your own path, really whatever that is. Okay, thank you very much. Thanks.