Karma, reincarnation, Life in Leicester 27th February, 2004. sound Sound Cassette English Abhijeet Joshi Oral Interview Interview 064 Ramnik Kavia Male 54 55 Baroda

Leicester U.K. Diploma EN Gujarati, Swahili, English I would just like to start off the interview with talking about your families past specifically just kind of get an idea of where you are coming from and where your parents came from. You know the towns or villages where they came from and their occupations and their background first of all. I think we have been very-very fortunate in terms of knowing exactly where we come from. My family comes from Kutch, Gujarat. And they were Romany blacksmiths. They used to roam around in bullock-carts with anvil, with fire and big hammers and all sort of tools for blacksmiths. And what we used to do is to fix somebody's cart that broke down or farmers on the way needed tools made, and that's what my forefathers did. They were blacksmiths in real sense but they were wandering blacksmiths Romany and that's where we originate from. And we have got family history and tree going back to 1400's. We have been very fortunate. It is very strong with that. That's right. Fantastic. And what we have is now that people started to settle in, and started to settle in towns, villages and so on. We have a small town where we have a sort of place where all the records are kept and we go to sort of worship there once in a while. And one of my great-great grand dads had a wish like in 1600's; you know what used to happen is that if there was sort of war between two factions of in town or somebody sort of stole somebody's cattle, there would have been a war to sort of get things back. And he died in one of those little wars and his wish was that everyone of his grand child, once in their lifetime comes to visit him and his sort of memory is there and everybody goes to visit him there, where he was cremated. Fantastic! And we still do it. I still got photographic record of it. When I took my son and my father took us there, we've got the records that we went to visit him. And its, it was a wonderful feeling that you know where you come from, where you belong and having your family history, it's a great advantage to know and your children could sort of also have a sense of belonging. It is just quite of unusual as well in India. Because a lot of stuff used to be kind of word of, word of mouth you know it's just recorded that way for something to actually be able to trace about that. That's pretty good. What about your mother? Where was she from? My mother comes from a small town known as Guddada and that is near city of Morbi. Something like 25-30 kms away from there. And my father comes and they were settled in the town called Nanibarar. That is also something like 40 kms away from Morbi. And that's where they come from. And my father and mother used to tell a story that they got married, my mother was two and a half years old and my father was 7 years old and their family had agreed that they will get married. But mind you the, my mom went to her in-laws when she was 20 years old so that's how they got married. So that was the intention of? That's right. Did they know each other then as they were growing up? Was there any connection or did they only then meet? They used to play together. Really? Yeah. Oh wow! And that's how they knew each other. Yeah. But then my father, he was born in 1920's and when he was 16 years old he came to Africa because one of my other great uncles has established some sort of blacksmith workshop in Africa. My father went down to work with him and then he worked and when he was around 22-23 years old he called my mom back to Africa and then my brothers and sisters were all born in Africa. But you were born in. But I was born in Baroda and I've still visited the building where I was born. Wow! And it's wonderful to be able to see where you come from. Yeah. And I married Kailash in Baroda as well. So I have got very strong links with city of Baroda. Fantastic! When your father and mother settled then in Africa, whereabouts did they settle? They settled in Nairobi, Kenya and my father worked for some other companies and so on for several years. But back in 1945-46, he decided to do something himself and he started a small workshop, which is still going on, run by my uncles and so on, family business. And it was wonderful feeling. There we used to stay as an extended family. My uncle, aunts and everybody used to live together. So it was a great feeling. So the kind of lifestyle that they had then was very family--? Family oriented. And as I said I was born in India but brought to Kenya when I was little and I grew up, studied in Kenya. I studied in Swahili because that was the National Language when I went to school. So I learnt how to speak, read, write Swahili. Okay. And I know that my mummy used to teach me Gujarati and I used to hate it. But she used to pull our ear and say, 'come on you must learn this'. And I am grateful to her for that, that we learned Gujarati and that sort of given us an richness in the languages. What was life like just raise of aside from school, just growing up in and was, did you actually live in city or where you outside the city? We used to live in suburbs of Nairobi and we have had a wonderful time in think. Basically because of cousins and uncle and aunts and everybody used to live together. We didn't even realize who is who? It was one family and you know even now all the cousins and everyone who grew together, we still feel as if we are brothers and sisters. And it was great feeling and playing. We had no shortage of playmates because lots of us were there and we had a very big garden and we remember playing there when we were little. And I think most Hindu households; you will find a small temple in their homes. And I know that early in the morning, mom and dad and everyone else used to get together and say a prayer and then again in the evening. So it was wonderful feeling. They used to take us to temple, many other religious ceremonies. So that's how we sort of got used to Hindu way of life. Even today because of what my mom-dad and sort of family taught us, I am still awaken. Not because of religion but because the way you're brought up, it stays with you forever. What about, was there much interaction with other communities in Nairobi? We always see there was a lot of interaction with the Hindu community but you know the Black community or White community, if there was any there or other religion? Was there much interaction? I think basically we had lots of neighbors from other religions - Islam, Christians and even the indigenous population there. We had very good sort of relations with them because we had neighbors who came from African background, we had neighbors who came from other sort of different backgrounds and different religions. But I am sure that we never thought of religion in any way but everybody was the same. And I think that's given us a very open mind and respect other religions as well. Okay. You mentioned that you had quite a strong religious background and that you'd go to the temple and things. How much did the temple actually play a part in your families' life? Were you very connected with the temple or you know visitors or you know? But, because we lived in a little isolated area. The good thing was that prayers were said at home. We had a temple room at home and I remember that either my uncle, father or everybody used to get together and sort of recite Shrimad Bhagwat Gita and we learnt from there and they used to explain what's happening, what Lord Krishna did, what was his teachings and it was way of life. And one of the things they taught us is that you always respect yourself. But you would get respect back provided you had respect for others. And they also taught us one very good sort of principle and that was that, you do things for yourself but when you have done something for somebody else then you have achieved something. And I think that stuck with us even now. We feel that obviously everybody does things for themselves but when you do something for community, do something for a friend, do something for relations and if you have something - share. And that's always been with us. And even now we believe that if you are well off, look after your family, look after friends, look after community and if you have something, share it with others. And I think that has given us a very sort of open mind, very good way of living. And when I had finished my studies and so on my parents started to move to U.K. because of the political conditions in Africa and they came to live in Leicester. How old were you at that point then? When they came I was still in Africa. I was something like 19 and they had moved over here. This is back in 71-72. And I came here when I was 22 years old first time and felt quite amazed when people used to talk about Britain. We thought Britain was paradise; Britain had lovely buildings, big mansions and my first impression when I came to Heathrow airport that this looks lovely airport. As soon as we got out and I started looking at all this brick houses, God, it was a Cultural shock. Is this London? They said yes. We went to few friends home and they had 2 down and 3 up and everywhere we went and saw; it was all the same. And then we were brought up; we were brought up in a very big house, several rooms. We had a dinning table, it sits like 20-25 people in one go and come here and you can sit four. I said good God, where have we ended up? What's happened? And, because back in Kenya we had a family business. We were well established and when we came here, obviously when you go somewhere you don't have all the facilities you're used to. So I remember, when I first came I said I am going back. My mom said no, you are not and I stayed here for a couple of months and then found a job. And first day I remember me going to work. My mum stood in the window and she cried because over there we had cars, we had drivers, we were looked after and she stood in the window. I said, when I came back from work I said, 'What happened to you?' Over there you had a car and this that. I said, 'it's just been a few months. We can get a car but you've got to know whether you're going to live here or not.' Yeah. And she won't let me go back to Kenya. And that's how, then I started getting used to sort of way of life here. Why was the delay between your parents coming to the U.K. and you coming? I didn't want to come. You just didn't want to come. Because I am the youngest in the family, my mom was too attached to me and she wanted me to come here. So to call me here she sort of telephoned us and said, 'I am not well, I would like you to come here.' So I said if she is not well I must go and see her. So I did come down. I had a return ticket and she won't let me go back. Were you studying over in Africa? I finished my studies. What did you study? I studied Structural Engineering. Okay. I did a Diploma. But I remember my primary school days very clearly because there were lots of cousins and brothers and sisters. I have 3 brothers and 2 sisters. And then there were cousins, who, all of us lived together. So the driver used to come and drop us at school every morning and pick us up again lunchtime, drop us in the afternoon, pick us up again in the evening. So we were extremely well cared for and I remember living in a large family. You have uncles and aunts so I used to go and say 'bye' to all the aunties and uncles and each one of them gave me 50 cents so at the end of the day I would end up with more money than any one of my brothers or cousins. Smart. But it was a lovely feeling. Yeah. We still have this affection for each other in the family and I miss that joint family thing. I think in this country it is very difficult to have large houses and even sort of finding anything with 10 bedrooms or 12 bedrooms is virtually impossible. So we miss that way of life. Yes. And back for again to when you arrived in Leicester you said you started working. Where did you work? My first place was Martins Leicester Limited. It was dyers and finishers. Okay. But because I could do structural engineering and metal work and so on, I started working for them as maintenance man. And then you, you've worked for your parents or family, not there wasn't any pressure, you do this that or other. And when you come to work for somebody else it was a different way. It was bit difficult to digest it for a few months but then eventually got used to it. Who, did you stay with family then or you first arrived where your parents already had got? Yeah, my parents had already got here so. They were already settled so I come straight home. Okay. What was Leicester like when you first arrived? With regards to, with just the Asian community here and, what was it like? Leicester was a very quiet place. And first, when we arrived in the city, we went through, we lived in Belgrove and we went through Belgrove road and Melton road. And God I looked at it and said what a dump? It was completely run down because that area was ready for demolition. And people bought houses cheap there and the community was completely run down. If you looked at buildings, they needed a lot of attention and the shops, there were some of these old shops like Shankey brothers and DIY, Do-it-yourself shops and carpenters shop and lots of varied shops and the supermarket was funfair. And even Kenya was much more livelier than Leicester was and Nairobi was much more livelier, because it being the capital. So I found Leicester to be very-very quiet and. What about socially, what was there to do? Socially we had a few friends but there wasn't anywhere to go. Say back in Kenya I had so many friends. Everybody would get together and in the evening we would go out and not return home till 2-3 AM and that's what I was really missing, my friends. And it took some doing, to get used to it again. And it took me nearly 5 years. I was never settled. And after 5-6 years I started to feel a little at home. So it took a while. It took some while. Yeah. And at that point when did you, you moved in here in early 70's, were there any Hindu temples in Leicester at that point? That was just the beginning of the first temple. They had opened on Catherine Street, that Shri Sanatan Temple. And obviously my parents used to go there regularly but me going to work, I hardly went to temple then. But we still had a temple at home and by now I think religion had become a taboo. You know when you sort of grow up and you have your own mind and you say, 'Ah! Forget it.' Not worth it. Not worth it. But say you have been taught something as a young lad or as a young person it always stays in back of your mind. And how was it for your parents settling in the U.K.? Because as being a younger person it will be easier to adjust and stuff. It was very, very difficult. But for them it must be difficult. But what they used to do is they used to go down to India at least once a year or so and get away from this and I remember that since I was born I have never been back to India. My parents and brothers and sisters had been. Okay. And I had not. So one day I was passing by Belgrove road and saw this ad saying, 'cheap tickets to India' and when I came here my mother wanted me to get married to nice Hindu girl and I said, 'no I don't want to get married'. And she kept bringing or taking us to people's home and saying, 'look isn't she a nice girl?' I said, 'maybe to you not to me.' But they tried their best and I said, 'No'. But then I went to India and I had my brother-in-law who was in India. She kept writing to him 'get him married' and we used to have fun. Me and my brother-in-law what we did is I used to go with him, never refused and what we used to do, we used to somebody's home, have a nice cup of tea, something to eat and that became a practice. Once in the morning and once in the afternoon and I remember going to so many different homes and I think it was in Surat that we went to somebody's home and usually when the girl gets dressed up and everything, they bring tea and they bring something to eat. Rather than watching girls I was enjoying that sort of food. And I, she was being brought into the room and I winked at her. Poor girl dropped the tray and I said never again. But went to Baroda and met her. She come to show me the city of Baroda and we got hooked. Fantastic! What was it like going to India for you when you, obviously had quite a lot of relatives from your family --? I think what I did is, first few good months, I was just very fascinated by things in India and one of the things I was really fascinated by was number of architecture buildings. And when we first went, I was really enjoying myself and seeing things. But as then time went by you know the money gets less so I was having problems. Then I wrote to a friend in Kenya and he came to our wedding from Nairobi and then we went around, wandering around again. Stayed some 6-8 months in India, wandering around seeing things. We were together for 3 months. So you got married in India? Yes. Okay. So then yourself and your wife you came back to the U.K. after you got married? Yeah then we came back to India. This was back in 1977, May. I remember 18th of May we came. We got married on 8th of March'77. Then we wandered around for a good few months and then decided, because I was running out of money, it's time to get home. So we came home. And then did you get your own place or did you stay with parents? We stayed with my parents and then after 2 years or so on then we got our own house. And we just got it near to each other so we can still go to each other's home. Okay. And then we had our first child, my daughter in 1982, that was on 3rd of September, 1982. So at this point were you still working as like a Structural Engineer? Was that? Yeah. Did you carry that on there? Yeah then I work, I started to work for a different company known as Spencer Gears. I worked for them for quite many years. Okay. And then they closed down in recession. This was in 80-82. They were having tough time Engineering was and I was made redundant. Then I was unemployed for good 6 months and I used to do some voluntary work because I couldn't sit idle and at that time there was this new program known as Urban Program and there were lots of people who were having difficulty getting jobs. So we applied, we've got a community together. We applied for some funding and we were successful in getting funding from Urban Program, that's Central Government and its Council to start training workshop. Because I could do metal work so wood work wasn't that difficult. And we started teaching people how to get things, which they could get from India, manufactured here locally by teaching them the trade. And that expanded. When we started there were 20 people we were training and then in couple of years we were training 150 people every year. Wow! I worked for then till '89. I got elected on the Council in '86. What made you decide to? It was because you know I said the area was run down. The Government had decided to give grants. And what Council was insisting was that if we give you a grant this is what you get done. And houses, they belong to them. They were Private Houses, fine. They were giving grants because they couldn't provide new housing and they couldn't provide anything else. So people received Home Improvement Grants. But the Council was insisting that they must get following things done. And we said this house does not belong to you. You don't tell us what we want to, what we should have. We will tell you what we want and that's what you provide the grants for. And we had a very big argument and we started Belgrove Residents Association and I was the founder member and I was the first secretary, which is still going on. And, but I am not involved anymore with them. And we won the day. And after a few years some of residents said, 'why don't you stand for us?' And I said fair enough. So I stood. I had no intention of becoming a Politician but then I got so much involved that this is my 5th or 6th election, I won since. Fantastic! And I have been part of the community. Now I feel at home. Even if somebody paid me to go somewhere I wouldn't go. I love this city. And I have got quite a brief outline there of your history and where you are from. I want to now just ask you some questions kind of more to do with religious side of your life. Please. You're obviously from a very religious background. Could you tell me how your attitudes to religion and religious rituals and things like that changed over the years? You know different, you know things change with circumstances, they change and beliefs change and you know things like that. So will you be able to tell me little bit of it? Yeah. I have, I am a practicing Hindu. But at the same time I think some of the culture, some of the backgrounds and which were created within Hinduism were centuries old. And obviously when time changes what you need to do is you need to be realist. And I still believe in some of the scriptures and things which have been said, things which is humanity. And to be honest there were thousands of Gods in Hindus and fine, the way we look at it is that every person has got God within themselves. You don't need to look for God away from you. And Hindu way of life, these are the simple practices and I found Hinduism to be quite a liberal religion. It doesn't force anybody into doing things they don't want to do. It explains things and it's quite a flexible religion and one of the things Hinduism taught us is respect for humanity. And for that I am very pleased. And I am able to do what I do, much more effectively. And Hinduism is never sort of tried converting anyone else into Hinduism. They say if you feel comfortable your wish and likewise in terms of diet or another things it, there are all sort of written practices. It says when it comes to food that we do not kill things for which has got intellect. And you go for the lowest eminent denomination of intellect for food and that's vegetables, lentils and things like those. And I think that is bit, one of the part which is kept to hidden. A few other people, my brothers and cousins, they eat meat but that's their choice. And I think that something that stuck with me that animals have life, they have a right to exist and I have had that respect in my mind and that's kept me to be a vegan. And I used to love wild life in Africa and I said how could people kill animals and eat them? And I think that's stopped me from eating any meats. I never tried any meat. Even when I was little I never tried anything. And for that I think I have got a little richness in me, trying to respect living things. Obviously if we look at even vegetables, they are living things. But it doesn't have as much intellect as a bird would have or a cow would have or a pig would have and that's the reason I have stayed vegan. But I don't mind anybody else eating. If somebody would sit next to me who wasn't vegetarian, they had meat, fine. It's their choice. And from what I have learnt in Hindu religion you don't impose your views on anyone else. Let people have their own beliefs and you can still coexist. And for that I think I am rich. Do you believe in incarnation and reincarnation and those things? To be honest, intellectually it is very difficult. Fine I believe that Karma you do you have that sort of life and to be honest with modern day, science and other things, things have really moved on. I believe in a super being somewhere but never been able to understand it so I have never tried really getting into. And if somebody talked about super being or, fine there is God somewhere but to be honest it is very difficult and it's a very intellect argument with anyone to be able to survive with that case out. For or against that there is no solution to it. But obviously the life, the universe and everything else according to the scriptures, I believe there is something but at a last that what does exist. It's very difficult to identify. There must be, because there are lots of other religion, which believes in life after death. So there is something but there is no clear indication of what is it? Right. And things such as Karma, it's here. You do good, you get good rewards for it. You do bad, it's simple. So for instance, I am talking to you now and if I expect you to respect me and not give you respect then I am not a recipient of respect from you. It's vice-versa with each other. If I respect you, you respect me and if I treat you badly you would have the same feeling for me, you would have bad feelings for me. And it's simple principle. If you wanted to be treated nicely treat others the same as you would be treated and that's, you know very successful way of living. And do you think it's important to do charitable work or voluntary work, those kind of things, with relation to religion or just in you do it any way regardless. Charitable work is very important to do. To be honest there are two truths which I know for a fact. Everyone who is born, has to die, right. And it's never been a case. I have never seen a five hundred years old chap or a person. Would you like to have some tea. I am fine thank you. I am sorry, yes. If you can give me some water please. Basically that's the principle. If you do some good, if you got money, you are not going to take it with you. Sorry about this. That's alright. Do you want to stop for few minutes? No please. Okay. A few general questions that I want to ask you. Lot of people are always debating on this so like to get people's opinion so that they can come on compared opinions on this issues. The caste system, do you think that, that's still relevant today both in the U.K. and also in India. Because I mean you travel back to India quite a lot so you see, what happens there? How important do you think it is? I think the caste systems were formed basically to give people sort of sense of belonging or a job to do otherwise the caste system has got no real value as such. I think the only thing I believe in is humanity fine. And Hindu religion also doesn't go on caste system, it's created by people. And if somebody was doing say job of a carpenter, they became carpenters. But people are people, any human being is born, they are not born with the religion. They follow the religion their parents follow. Right so they basically the way to life people are taught becomes their religion and caste system should not exist. There is only one caste and that's humanity. And that's as far as I am concerned, I believe in that people are people, and they are all the same. People have different languages, different way of living but that's dependent on where people come from, how they have been brought up and I find Hinduism very liberal in those understanding. It's people who believe in different caste systems, they believe in different way of living, different heir in lower caste. There is no such thing as that. If you find say two little children playing they don't have a caste. They will happily play with each other. It's when they grow up and they are taught things, that when the indifference starts. But I think everyone belongs to one simple way of caste or way of life, is humanity. Another issue that often arises is the youth of today. Do you feel that they are more or less religious then say when you were a youth? I think when you look at youth of today, if you look at them realistically. They believe in logic. They don't follow anything blindly. I think most sensible youth of today have common sense and they can see good and bad. They can see science and fiction. So if you look at today's youth, they are not all dull, they are clever, they are much more sensible, they are much more alert and at times people don't give them the credit that's due to them and if you look at the education institute, there are far more sort of younger people going to universities now then ever before. There are far more educated people now then ever before. And they believe in science, they believe in reality. Fine the religions, if you look at all the religions no matter Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, there are certain religions, which is going down hill, it doesn't have such large following anymore. And the reason for it is because if you go back 16th century, religion was the thing. You were educated through religion, you were doing things through religion and everything was religion related. This day and age not everything is religion related and it makes a difference. Do you think it is important for them to learn their mother tongue? I think, basically, it is very important for people to learn languages and mother tongue, if you cannot learn your own mother tongue then you are at a disadvantage. I can give an example of, my mother tongue is Gujarati and if I wasn't able to speak Gujarati and I went to India, I won't be able to communicate to number of people if I only spoke English. Likewise my children, both can read, write and speak Gujarati and thanks to her, she has spent a lot of time with them and that's how they gained their Gujarati and to me it is very important for children to be able to speak their mother tongue. How do you think things have changed then for Hindus in the U.K., say over the last 30 years? Do you think it is easier now for Hindus in the U.K. or? I think it was never difficult for any religion really, it was in different people's different beliefs and in, in U.K. way of living for everyone is much more easier than many other places. I think people have far more freedom of worship here than many other countries I know. Likewise Africa was very liberal in religion. India I find things are very liberal but it's amongst cults and people who mind it to make their own sort of mark, we impose on things and my belief is that extremism anywhere is not good. Okay. How do you identify yourself now? You have got deep roots in India, lived in Africa for a lot of your life, lived in U.K. for a number of years as well; you are a Hindu. Somebody was to say to you then, you know, 'Who are you?' What would, what would you say? Well, I am a Hindu, that's no getting away from but likewise I am British and if my children were asked, 'who are you?' they would say, 'we are British.' And obviously they are practicing Hindus as well. But in the family in the family we don't impose that you must do this, you must do that you must not do this. We let children make up their own mind. Pardon me, and then likewise, we are intelligent people, we can understand what's happening around us. As lord men one of the task we have to do is to go to lots of places of worship. We go to lots of different services. We have been to Methodist, we have been to Anglicans, we have been to Church of England, we go to Cathedrals, we go to Catholic Churches wherever invited. It doesn't offend us in any way. It's a place of worship. We respect it for it. And by learning different ways, I think it has enriched our knowledge, our way of life and by respecting other religions its given us a lot of conviction to say that you don't have one religion, we have multi faith. And there is no harm in other people having a little different belief from you and if you respect them, you have no problems. Okay. Where do you see as home now? I see Leicester as home now, fine I have lot of affection for India, I have got lot of affection for Africa, but my home is Britain. Okay. Finally then, just to round off the interview. Do you have any final thought or final message to give it to people who will be listening in the future? I think the most important thing is believe in any religion you believe in. I am a Hindu, but likewise I utmostly give respect to other religion. There are lots of different ways of living but the most important thing is respect for others and because somebody believes in a different religion to you, they are not different. If you look at ultimate objective of any religion, is to make better human being. You read Bible, what is it trying to do. It's trying to make a better human being of you. You read Quran, what is Quran trying to do. It's trying to make a better human being, right. You look at Shrimad Bhagwat Geeta, what is Bhagwat Geeta trying to do, make a better human being. Look at any religious scriptures or books, their ultimate objective is better human being. So what's the difference? I don't see any difference in different way of living, like, even say for instance you come from different culture, people eat differently. There might be same loaf of bread people have several different way of eating it. So it's common to sort of, be different. If you are comfortable one-way stick to it, but modern day and age I think, religion has a place to make better human being but there is nothing bigger than humanity. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.