Life in Walsall, Life in Leicester, Hindu religion. 2nd December, 2003 sound Sound Cassette English Abhijeet Joshi Oral Interview Interview 074 Sujata Barot Female

Leicester U.K. EN Gujarati, Hindi, English You were talking earlier about your great, was he your grandfather or your great grandfather, your grandfather and how he came from India to Africa, would you just tell me about that again please? My grandfather and my grandmother on my maternal side and both came over from India, I believe just before the Second World War, when the British was still in charge and they needed a lot of workers to build the railroads and you know to build up the infrastructure in Africa, and of course the young men were all taken away to like join the British Army and fight for the British empire. Then there were others who were taken away just purely to do labor work, manual work and that is what my grandfather did. He worked for a British company there at that time and that had a transport firm and which is what he learnt. And then from that, when of course, you know, after the Second World War when Kenya got its independence from Britain and so other communal countries got their independence. A lot of these workers were then able to set up their own companies and it was almost like being the middleman if you like. So the British were in charge, even after the war had ended and even after independence, so the British were totally in charge and very-very much below as in the very lowest strata were the African, the indigenous population and so they then became the manual workers and the Indian workers then had the option or the opportunity to set up their own businesses and actually employ Black workers now as the East African people. So that is how he started off. And he started off with just a tatty old lorry and he was transporting a lot of the goods that were shipped over from India to Africa and he realized there were pockets of and very small pockets of the Asian community dotted all over Kenya and he was transporting goods, goods that you could not get in Africa. There were certain vegetables that yes you could grow in Africa, because the climate was very-very similar, but there were certain spices you had to have shipped over, certain materials you know, like sarees, and things, so that was going on. There were also other things that you needed, especially if you were a and most of them were devout Hindus, if you needed specialist materials to do your Hindu religious Pooja practices then you had to have that shipped over. And so, I remember him telling me when I was little girl that he, all this material if you like goods would come over by boat. His lories would pick it up at the docks and then transport them all over Africa. So it was quite a thriving business, very, very busy and before long he had a fleet of these lories and so, he was doing quite well. He also supported the other extended members of his family; originally there was only a small group of them as in like just my grandfather's immediate family and my grandmother's just immediate family you know, there was a couple of her brothers there and a couple of his brothers there, that is all to begin with. But then it grew, because once he got his own company and business thriving, he then managed to, he was able to then call the others over, who came over by boat as well and then set them up. So, in a way it was almost like he was the pioneer and so other extended members of the families could come over and would not have to worry about food or accommodation. He would look after them and then eventually, they would find their own feet and get their own businesses up and running. And so my grandfather's family were one of the first settlers, if you like, in a small town called Kakamega in Kenya and Kakamega was about three to four hundred miles away from Mombasa, which is where my father's family comes from. So there is my mother's family all settled in Kakamega and there is my mom growing up as a little girl in Kakamega. Now my father's family and his you know parents came over from India as well, but they settled in Mombasa on the coastal town and after independence they, you know some of the younger people started working in offices and working as clerks for the British Army and the British Navy and so it could, because Mombasa is a port so, all the forces were based there and there were lots of jobs going. So, there were lots of jobs going there in the ports, so that is where my father's family started working. The women in those days, obviously still just stayed at home, they did not go out to work and also they got married at much earlier age then they do now a days. So, for all Hindu families, as soon as the girl reach the age of fourteen to fifteen that was it, married. My grandmother got married at the age of thirteen; my mother got married at the age of fifteen, you know my and my father was sixteen. So here they, both are my father and my mother having grown up as first generation Hindus, in Africa and then they got married and had then to settle down somewhere. And my father was only working in a very lowly paid job, as a clerk in an office, at the docks and my mother had to leave her family behind who were quite well off, with these fleet of lories you know, great big transport company and traveled all the way to Mombasa, moving with my father's family and look after them. So, at that time all the women stayed at home and the men went out to work. And she would get up at five or six o'clock in the morning, collect all the wood to get the furnace going, the big boiler, so that they can have hot water and have a bath, especially with it being a hot country, you normally had about, on average about three baths or showers a day. And when I say bath, I do not mean like an English sitting down you know, in a big white enamel bath, this was like a walk-in bathroom and there was a plug hole in the middle of the floor where all the water went down and just one tap, that was just cold water. You had a little wooden stool that you sat on and the bucket or a pail, that you actually use to bring hot water in from outside in the backyard where the whole water is being, you know heated up, so you would bring in a couple of these pails of hot water and then mix it with the cold water from the tap and you would sit down and you had a little container, either a plastic or a metal, stainless steal container that you used to take the water from the bucket and then pour it over yourself and wash off the soap and that was it, and you did that three times a day. You had to do first thing in the morning before you did anything else because as a strict Hindu, you had to be clean before you did your morning prayers and before you even touched food or started cooking. So, this would be done by the women, so that all the members of the household could practically have a shower quickly and get over back if you like quickly and then do the Pooja, and then have something to eat and then the men folk would just depart to go off to work. The women would then be left to carry on the daily domestic chores and to look after the children and they would often share some of their workload. And so, the bulk of the domestic chores fell on the women and of course domestic chores in those days were very-very hard, you know we did not have any of these kinds of convenience foods or any kind of gadgets, you know kitchen gadgets to help the women, everything right from scratch was made at home. From, you know, early morning the women would start cooking as in not just the breakfast but then you know on a daily basis they would make fresh bread, biscuits even the butter had to be churned, the lassi you know had to be churned, the butter milk had to be churned, yogurt had to be made at home, so you could not just pop into your local sweet market and get all these convenience foods, everything was made at home. Then round about mid morning, you know they would, some women would be delegated to sorting out the children and sorting out lunch, then the other women, especially the elder women would then sit down in the big backyard and lay down sheets you know of cotton, and on these sheets, they would then lay out all the papadams that they have just made, you know the dough was being made, somebody, it was like a chain of women who would perform these tasks. One women would actually make the dough and knead it and other women would chop it into round you know dough shapes, another one would roll it out, then the others would actually start laying it on the white sheets, so that it would bake in the sun. And so everyday these kinds of activities took place, where they were making papadams or you know Bombay savoury snacks you know like chevdo and gaanthiya. Then they would be making chutneys so, they would have to collect all the kind of, raw mango, you know and then slice it up and then bottle it up and then turn into chutneys. Do you remember all this from when you were a child? Yes because, I used to be such a nuisance, I used to you know be, for ever pestering all the you know, my aunties then and my grandmother and just say, 'can I help, can I help, I want to help out', and then of course they would give me things to do, so there was not dangerous, you know so there was no chopping allowed, I was not allowed to go anywhere with a knife, but I could actually help with certain things like stirring things, you know something that was not a hot boiling kind of, you know chutney or anything. And I could help you know some of the other ladies lay out the papadams on, and then once of course, everything had dried then there was a task of collecting it all back in again. So those things I learnt right from an early age and so it was automatic that these gender breakdowns, one would automatically be influenced by and you did not even question it, you know. So, my brothers were never ever made to do this, they would be playing in the backyard with the other kids, whereas the little girly children were made to do these tasks. How many brothers and sisters did you have? Three brothers and myself, the one girl, so I was always with my aunties you know. I was quite lucky that I grew up with you know aunties at my father's house. There were three aunties there and then when we went to visit my mom's family back in Kakamega again there would be four aunties there. So these women well, had a great influence in my life and they taught me all the basic kind of rudiments of domestic life in those days and I was very-very lucky also, I suppose in a way, by having three brothers that sometimes in the afternoons when all the domestic chores have been done and this was like a down time, like a relaxing time, I could go and play with my brothers and so, I equally then became a tom boy, you know. But they were basically just allowed a very-very free reign and had a good time growing up you know, going off. You did not have, you have to worry about safety, you know in many ways, there was not this kind of political correctness form of, a childhood play. We were playing in the most amazingly, potentially dangerous areas. We used to sometimes go and hide in some of my grandfather's lories that which is resting after having been out all day that come back absolutely filthy and all the, kind of, like the, goods have been unloaded off the lories. And we would sneak in under the tarpaulin and get into the back of these lories and things. Oh, you know, gosh, you would not dare be like to do anything like that now, but in those days it was great fun. And we used to go roaming around in all the backyards and where we had like a mini jungle at the back of our house and go and eat things of trees and bushes and we go, and we would not know if any of these was poisonous though, we just did it, just a great luck. And of course, with it being a hot country no shoes, I do not ever remember wearing shoes whilst I was growing up in Africa, up until the age of about eight, which is when we came to the U.K. We just used to roam around, so our skin on the soles of our feet just automatically became hardened and so it did not matter if there was any sharp pieces of objects you know lying around or whatever we were walking in or stepping in, we just did it, we grow up like that and it was such a wonderful carefree childhood not having to worry about where you are going, who you are going with, you know you must come back in when it gets dark or anything like that. Then in the evenings we used to sit and listen to the radio because we were so distant in a way from our Indian culture, you know as it was in India. We had an Indian Hindu culture that we picked up from our grandfather and then from our parents. So, its kind of like stagnated, it did not evolve, it did not grow and so we were listening to a lot of these old, old songs on the radio and on the cassette player. Well, there actually hang on, it was not even a cassette player, it was the old reel to reel, tape recorders that we used to listen to, had no tele of course, no television in those days. And we used to go to like birthday parties, or Diwali parties to each others' houses and it was all that kind of old traditional children's rhymes and, old traditional religious hymns and Diwali, Navratri, all the Indian Hindu festivals, I inherited or I thought how this should be done even like the decoration of an Aarti tray, how to celebrate Holi, by throwing colored powder at each other. I inherited all that knowledge from my grandparents, who then passed it to my parents, who then passed it to me. So we are second generation down the road now, from the 1930s down to the 1960s now and it had not evolved or changed at all. So when we first came to the U.K. we in a way kind of, repeated that experience, that migratory experience of not having anything to hand that we could call our own, and having to build it all up again. Starting the whole process again. Yeah, so this time, when we have, I first came to the U.K. with my family in 1968. Why did you come? We had heard rumors that there was political talk of Idi Amin kicking out all the Hindus, because there was now a kickback if you like, where by the indigenous black population felt that, 'look we have been exploited for far too long by the white people and then by the Asian people and look how the Asian people have done so well for themselves and they have become so affluent and you know settled and everything, we are getting no where fast.' So, my family felt that before it started happening in Kenya, before the Ugandan, you know Idi Amin expulsion thing starts happening in Kenya, we better get out, so that is what we did and my family also had this great love affair with the British, you know cultural experience if you like. Anybody who lived abroad in those days in the common wealth countries thought that the best education in the world was here in Britain. Because we did not know anything about this sort of, double standard of living you know with the working classes and the middle classes and we believe that everybody in England went to boarding school, everybody went Oxford and Cambridge, everybody had the most fantastic standard of education, most fantastic standard of, we really truly believed that the streets of London were paved with gold and it would be a fantastic opportunity to get a good chance in life for your children. So my parents came to the U.K. of course, then when we arrived here, we realized that it was totally different. We have not even made aware of this kind of working class, this under class. Did you already have family here when you came or? No just a friend, my father had a friend, who moved a couple of years before and so that is all we knew. And so we went to live with him in a tiny little terraced house all crammed together, all the kids all crammed together on one double bed us, there was four of us, three boys and one girl all crammed together on one double bed and my mom and dad had to sleep on the floor, on a blanket in a rented house and we did that for two weeks, until my dad had got, you know a job and then he found another house that he could also then rent out. A lot of the Asians at that time, in the kind of like late sixties and early seventies here in the U.K. were struggling to get a job and then buy a house because they did not have any collateral, they had no kind of, business records. And even though you could say to the bank manager in those days even in U.K. look but I, you know I had a business over there in Kenya and I have got, it did not matter, unless you could provide six months worth wage slips, you know you could not get away, my dad could not get a job in an office anywhere because he had no British qualifications. His accent was still you know tinged with an Indian and a half Swahili accent, so half India half Swahili. So, he could not get a job in an office and so he did the best next thing, three days after arriving in this country he just went and got a job in a foundry and he faced immense pressure in terms of the racism that was around in those days. You know he was called Ali because everybody apparently was a Paki in those days. So it did not, you know White people did not really know the difference between Hindus and Muslims and so everybody was a Paki and therefore everybody was an Ali, so that was his nick name at work. And then my mom got a job in a factory as well, just to make ends meet and so, there was the six of us living in a two bedroom terraced house. What did you feel like when you first came here? Oh, it was horrible, I hated it, I absolutely hated it. All of a sudden I was trapped in all these clothes, we arrived in February and it was freezing cold and there was white snow, and I did not know what snow was. I mean just as we got off the plane there was all this snow falling and I kept sticking out my tongue, to taste it and see what it was like and I kept trying to catch it and I could not believe why it was just melting and why could not I collect it, I could not understand, that was really bugging me. And then as we got off the plane down the steps and then we saw it on the ground and we were crunching our way through it, you know crunch, crunch, crunch it was fantastic, but then about ten minutes later, the cold hit us, we were frozen, we did not even realize this, as we got off the plane we were in a short sleeved, well I was in a short sleeved dress and the boys were in T-shirts and trousers and just sandals and of course we were freezing. So just, you know, we had suffer that cold for at least an hour, until we got into the airport and our luggage had been processed, and then my dad very-very quickly opened up all the cases because he knew that it was going to be cold and it was winter. But of course he did not realize it would hit us straight away when we got off the plane. He packed everything away and then I noticed the packing because we have not been involved in, I was too little, I was not involved in packing. And then we saw all these kind of, balaclava and scarves and cardigans and jackets which we had not come across before ever in Africa and I have always seen my dad shipping all these things on us and my mom is trying to squeeze us and we are like really-really being naughty and we just do not want to know. We are cold and we want to put some extra clothing on, but it just felt so uncomfortable and so restrictive and I was like screaming, saying, 'I do not want to put this balaclava on, I do not want this scarf on me and I do not want to put these shoes on in,' it was awful and I was screaming and of course I started so my three brothers started screaming and crying and it must have been so terrifying and difficult for us. But even more so for my dad, to be in this new country in an airport with everybody staring at them with these four kids screaming. I mean, we even on the plane, because we had flown with BOAC, even the food was different we could not eat the food that was provided on the plane and thank god, my mom had packed some chevdo and gaanthiya in her sort of, bag on the plane, so we had that, so we were starving by now as well, because we could not eat this mashed potato like, you know we could not know some of that was or it was just so bland and. And then at the airport the same thing, we got, you know my dad went and got some tea for us also, we all had cups of tea, but it was like water because we were grown up with Indian tea, that was made with milk, so it was always like a milky toffee that we had as a milky tea, but all of a sudden this was like really watery and no taste and there was no masala in it. So that very first initial reaction was very-very hard and difficult for us at that age, I was eight years old at that time and my three brothers were younger, there is only a year difference between us, so horrendously difficult. And then we had landed at 11 a.m. when it was still light, it was okay and by 3 o'clock when we went from Heathrow to Walsall in the West Midlands. Okay so that where you stayed initially, yeah. That is how we, yeah, we stayed initially with some friends. It was so dark all of a sudden from nowhere by 3 o'clock poof pitch black, and we were so scared. And it was so cold and then we saw the fog for the first time, we had never seen the fog, it had gone so foggy and then the white snow, that we first felt at 11 a.m. at Heathrow, all of a sudden this snow, now as we arrived in Walsall it turned into to this kind of, brown sludgy, horrible messy thing and our feet was so cold, I thought my toes had just gone I could not even feel them any more, they were so numb and painful. My nose just would not stop running, my hands were completely covered and we arrived at this house, my dad's friend's house and he was actually living there as a lodger, which we did not know, my poor dad did not know about. So he only had one room in his house, but the owners the landlords, if you like were fantastic, they were Asian as well and they were, 'No, no, no do not worry, it is not a problem, you know you, if you, you have turned and you did not realize that your friend just lives one room, do not worry, we will give up our bedroom.' So they gave up a bedroom for us, that is how we ended up, four kids on a double bed and my mom and dad on the floor and the people who actually own the house, the landlords, slept downstairs on a sofa. And the first move we had again that night this lady came, she had only just got home from a factory, but she actually wrestled up some food for us and we were again completely culturally shocked at this food because, what she had done was she had opened up a tin of beans and very quickly in a pan put some masala in it and try to turn it into like an Indian, you know curry and then she got some bread, so because she just did not have time to make chapattis very-very quickly. And so that is what we had was, first meal and we could not believe it, we could not and then she put this one, a one bar electric heater in our bedroom and we all just huddled around that, we would not move from there at all, only just to go to the bathroom and come straight back again and we were still completely covered from head to toe in all those coats and jackets and balaclavas and gloves and scarves and things and we still would not move from that bar and when we tried to swallow this food because it was, we were literally forcing ourselves to swallow the food because we were starving but it just tasted vile, it was disgusting and it was not. I said, 'do not worry, look, give me just give me a little bit of time and I will try and sort out some proper Indian food for you,' and so she very quickly got to work in the kitchen and she made some fresh chapattis and we had that and some proper Indian curry. Oh! My God, that woman even now, I tell you, I cannot begin to thank her enough and then, about 7 o'clock that evening, we wanted to pray, but of course there was no temples at all in Walsall at that time, so we could not go to a temple or anything. So this kind lady showed us in one of the room she had like a photograph of an Indian God and we could use that to do Aarti and she had a couple of Agarbattis you know we have those, so we did that and that is how we got through our first day in the U.K. Well, so then did you start school then after that, how did all progress on? Yes, very shortly after that, the first thing my dad did was to go and get a job in a factory. Then he found a home, terraced house that we could rent, so we then became lodgers in this house. My mom and dad were going to work in the day and we were at school. We would come home from school and just have lots and lots of chocolates for the first time ever, we could actually, tons and tons of chocolates and it was not a problem because in Africa you could not store chocolates in a house and it would melt and so, and chocolate was also expensive and the chocolate was not of good quality anyway. Everybody whether you lived in India or Africa would you know beg any relatives who were going abroad and coming back to say, can you bring packs some Swiss chocolates and some Cadbury's chocolates, because it was the best chocolate in the world, whereas the chocolate you got elsewhere just abroad was not of the same standard. So here we right from day one got addicted to having a bar of chocolate everyday straight from school, Cadbury's chocolate what a luxury, wow! And then eventually my dad got us nice little tele and it was only black and white tele and I remember as a little girl seeing on the news that day, Bobby Kennedy being shot and I think that was probably about a year later actually 1969 and that was quite shocking. I kept looking up at the screen and then looking at my mom and dad, looking up at the screen, looking at mom and dad and it was quite strange because my mom was crying, my dad was quite shocked and they were upset but I did not know why, because I did know who this guy was on the tele and I did not know what was happening and they were saying this is going to be really-really bad for the world and it was really horrific and shocking he had been killed. But I kept thinking it was like a, just a film or a cowboy film or something, I did not associated that this was actually something that happened in real life. I thought it was just like in Bonanza, because that was the programme that we used to watch quite a lot when we were kids, Bonanza. So we did, missed it, but I still remember that quite vividly in my mind and then I remember one of my dad's friends, he used to come back with him after work and his name was Chacha Chand and he had a massive long beard all the we thought at that time right down to his knees and he had a skull cap on and he was a Muslim man and we had not come across many Muslims in Kakamega or Kenya, and so he was teaching us all these things about Muslim culture which was totally new for us Hindus and we said, 'yes, but in Africa we do this', we all share each other's cultures and things because it is a small Asian community, so he was the first one who actually became my dad's friend. So my dad had a Muslim friend rather, because he had his Hindu friend anyway but now this was his Muslim friend from work and he had this other friend Hindu, Gujarati friend. So he started going to you know, they started going out in the evenings to a pub which we did not know about, so my dad was out at pubs in evening and me and my three brothers would be at home watching tele and then my mom would start you know making things ready for school the next day. And school was quite a shock because we, for the first we came across school dinners and we could not eat it, it was just absolute rubbish, we could not stand the smell or the taste of it all because at that time, it was used to be cooked on the premises there and then we came across meat for the first time and eggs, which we had not eaten we were pure Vegan's, vegetarians. And there were times when we would be so hungry that we would just anything at school and my mom had told us that, 'look you can eat whatever you like as on you do not eat beef, you are a Hindu, so you do not eat beef okay,' and that was drummed in us right from an early age. So at school we would say to the dinner ladies, 'we can have everything except beef', and so the dinner lady, she just used to pile up everything on and because we were so skinny, the dinner lady, she used to love me and she used to go, 'Oh, here she comes she has got no fat on her look at her, Oh, my god! I have see more fat on a butcher's apron' and all this stuff and I did not have a clue what she was all about, but I loved it because I would get second helpings which none of the other kid could have. So great, I could have second helpings and I used to love custard and pudding so, I became totally addicted to chocolate, totally addicted to puddings and all that sugar-sugar-sugar, right from an early age, yeah, the main meal, the meat into veg, I was skimping on so I was not getting enough protein but I was getting lots of fat, podgy, sugary foods. So that is how I developed this you know sugary tooth if you like and a great love affair started at that early age. That was my first real introduction to like the British food culture if you like was the sugary sweet things and because we did not know that there was any such thing as a savory item on the English food menu if you like or the British food menu. Then of course later on we got introduced to fish and chips and everything else chicken and chips and so everything was everything with chips that is all we knew because we did not know what Mushy Peas was of course we could not have stated, give me a pie or anything. Then as we grew older we used to try and get my mom to cook English food for us but of course she did not have a clue, so the only thing that she could were these readymade meals and in those days all you had was Frey bentos or the Findus curry and bagel, which was dreadful. It was nowhere like the curry's that we could have at home. But there again even the food that my mom cooked at home, she could not have access to any kind of spices or anything in the U.K. in those days in you know 1968 to 1970. So what my mom used to do was she used to get food parcels sent over by one of my aunties who was still, yet in, still in Africa and she used to send regularly these food parcels, I mean, my God now if that happen you know we would probably get done for allegedly smuggling drugs or something, because these parcels, these were newspaper wrappings and if you undid the wrapping there would be garam masala in there and chai masala and dal masala because you could not get that here. You could get the basics like the red chili powder, salt and things like that, but not the proper homemade masalas that my mom's sister would make for us in Africa and send the parcels over. God I can still say it in my head now, we used to open these parcels with great excitement and undo all the newspaper wrapping and there would be this brown garam masala and chai masala. Now I am looking at it and thinking, God at that time, what would the customs have made of that, thinking it was probably drugs and simple things like josh sticks you know, Agarbattis, my aunty used to send over. All sorts of things that happened years ago in my grandparents' time, when all these food stuff got sent over from India to Africa until we developed our own plants and factories in Africa. So the similar thing happened here. We had had none of these; we had access to none of these. Also I remember another difficulty if you like, was the lack of bathing facilities, we had this terraced house but we had no bath and that loo was outdoors and they called it the cozy, you had to go outdoors in the freezing cold in you know winter time, could not have an indoor toilet or anything like that in those days and no indoor bathroom. You had to have a tin bath put in front of the living room or the lounge fire and it was a coal fire. So, that was the other thing my mom had to have make up a coal fire every morning so that we could get warmed up before we went up to school. And then once a week, because we could not do it everyday, it was too much hard work, once a week she would get that metal tin bath put it in front of the coal fire and then we could have a proper sitting down bath and that would take hours to fill up with lots of hot water, to and fro from the kitchen with that hot water into the living room back again, because it was just too cold to do it anywhere else because there was no central heating in those days. And so we were in this rickety old terraced house, with this tin bath in front of the coal fire having this lovely bath once a week only. Every other, every day otherwise we just had a quick wash and brushed our teeth and went straight to school that was it. And then the same thing once a week she would again fill up that tin bath with hot water and then wash clothes by hands because we had no washing machine. Then eventually I remember my dad buying a very-very old, well to me now it seems like an old fashioned washing machine but to her it must have been pure luxury because her fingers were probably down to her bones by then. This lovely washing machine that you actually loaded from the top, it was a top loading washing machine and then a mangle because we had no driers in those days. So she would wash everything by hand in the first couple of years when we got here in that tin bath and then just dry it out on the line outside, winter or summer, then we got this little washing machine, the tub washing machine and then the mangle. And oh and then we progressed two years later or three years later to a proper big sized television, because the one we had before was still black and white and a very small size. Now we had had got a bigger screen one but it was still black and white. We still had no phone, we used to have to go and use the, there was a phone box on the corner of our street, we used to use that and then of course we could not do Pooja everyday because we had not had a bath everyday, so that was another change and so my mom was finding that really difficult as a devout Hindu, not to be able to do her prayers everyday, not having had a bath and you know so she would even, even if it was really-really freezing cold and it took ages she would at least twice a week try and have a proper bath, in that tin bath in front of the, so, of course we will be kicked out of the lounge when people were having a bath and we would be sent upstairs to our bedrooms. So those were the kind of things that you know like practically that we found very difficult to cope with. Was there much communication with other members of the community like for festivals or anything, had the community started coming together at that point? Yes very, very, we were very small Asian community, Hindu community in Walsall in those days and so what we used to do was at Navratri time for example we used to hire the hall, in this you know a local school, it was a local junior school and we used to book that hall for nine nights and amongst ourselves there must be only about what one hundred may be hundred and fifty families to begin with in Walsall that were Hindus and then we used to all turn up and help each other out with the decoration and the decorating of the Murtis and the photographs and that is how we had a little, mini temple in the middle of the floor. And then amongst our own sort of community we would discover people like a talent to play the harmonium, the tablas and sing and we used to get all these sort of, elder members of our community to sing the religious songs and that is how we did Navratri. I remember my dad actually buying up loads and loads of broomsticks just to chop them up into dandiyas because we could not buy those either in those days. So he started making those and we used to spend hours just decorating them with just different colored tape, just to make them look pretty. We could not buy any of the Navratri costumes in those days here so. So yeah, what did you do? So we would discover various members, female members of our community who could sew. So like the Navratri season actually started well before, you know November, October time, it would start in the summer. So I would then get all my clothes ready and all the women would then say well, I want fours, depending on how much they can afford and you know how well off they were. I want four outfits been made please or we would write to our relatives in India and Africa and say, 'can you parcel us some sarees and things, please, you know for Navratri and Diwali.' I mean Diwali was another one. You know, there were not any shops that sold, you know all the kinds of mithai and chevdo and gaanthiya, all the savoury things in those days in Walsall and there was not enough kind of, that kind of, food items that we could actually make our own. So I remember we used to cheat in many ways, like to make gulab jamun you know, you are supposed to use certain things but we would cheat by using milk powder and then just add in some vanilla essence to it and making these balls and then frying them and then putting them in a sugar syrup. So that is how we cheated you know. Things like that and we used to get like, we used to do cornflakes chevdo. We used to buy packets and packets of cornflakes and packets and packets of rice crispies, and mix them all together and then put in you know, some haldi and a little bit of red chili powder and then mix all of and that is how we made chevdo. And you know, so you had to really make do all the time in anyway possible and then about you know sort of, the early seventies, mid say seventies a lot of our Asian businessmen, then started importing a lot of these things and started opening corner shops. So, that is how the corner shop grew. Again because we were not able to get any kind of, funding from the local banks and because we had no collateral, we had no six months wages now, we used the extended family system to borrow money from each other to set up our businesses whether it was a corner shop or a knitwear factory or whatever and we started doing it. But it was still very-very small just like it used to be in Africa, when we first started over there. And then as I became a teenager, sort of, between the age of say fourteen and sixteen, my mom and dad started getting really worried because all the children my three brothers and myself including were becoming very westernized, we were drifting away from our Hindu religion, from our Indian language, from everything because there was not kind of, greater activity going on in a cultural sense or a social setting. My dad felt that it might be easier if we moved to Leicester because there was this great big influx of Ugandan Asians now coming through, '76, '77 that era. So we came to live in Leicester because he taught that, 'Oh, you know may be now I can try and drove my kids away from this western culture and bring them back home, because there are so many Asians in Leicester. There was such a thriving community, I mean for goodness sake they have even got their temples in Leicester, whereas we did not have a temple in Walsall, it was you know, that smaller community. So we moved to Leicester. How old were you then? I was fifteen then. And so I found it really difficult, I found, again, yet another cultural shock to come here and see all these kinds of, cultural activities going on, in many ways it was fantastic. Its not I always wanted to get involved in the arts anyways, but in Walsall I had got involved with operetta and the choir. I joined a local Christian church choir and I liked to dance, so I joined an English dance troop, you know, we were doing dancing, we were dancing with the sticks and everything in those days, you know. So it was amazing. So all of a sudden I came to Leicester and I joined a Ras and garba group, I was dancing you know, and then I joined an Indian drama group, but of course I could not read and write Gujarati. I had forgotten. I was a fluent reader and writer of Gujarati when I first came to the U.K. at the age of six-seven and here I had forgotten because there was no need for me to practice that every day more so, so it went out. So arriving in Leicester at the age of fifteen-sixteen I started having Gujarati classes and that was another God sent here you know, the way, there were actually classes in teaching Asian kids how to read and write Gujarati and I was completely gobsmacked to use a vernacular when I discovered that there were Indian cinemas here. I mean, good God, here in Leicester, you see in Walsall if you wanted to watch an Indian film, it would be always two years later then when it first came out anyway, by that time it arrived in Walsall and the like the equipment of the ABC or the Odeon only had like a Sunday morning slot to show Indian cinema, because that is the time when the white people did not go to the cinema and so that was the slot they would give for an Indian film to be shown and I remember, sorry going back to Walsall days. I remember going on a Sunday morning to these old-old cinemas, they were cold and damp, because the heating was not on and watching you know, Pakeeza and all these great Rajesh Khanna films and a great religious, Hindu religious film Santoshi Maa, that came out at that time so that was in Walsall. And then coming back to Leicester again, all of a sudden here in Leicester there were three Asian cinemas, just totally devoted to showing Asian films only, so we did not had to fight you know, for our seats with the white audience and our films could just be on it any time of the day or night. It was incredible, wow! And then they had a ladies show on a Thursday afternoon, so it was women only. So that if you had a family, that was very-very strict and if you want to go into the cinemas incase you would you know, you are going to be flirting with the boys or getting up to no good, there was a special concession made just for women on a Thursday afternoon, it is a lady show, that was fantastic. Navratri here was such a huge festival, the three largest halls in Leicester the De Mont Hall, Granby Halls and there was another community hall just up the road here in Belgrave in Leicester, was being used for Navratri, it was fantastic and they actually had bands that came over from India, to play the music, the Navratri music and all of a sudden we had access to all the jewelry shops on Melton road, the mithai shops on Melton road and of course the clothes shops, we could now buy Indian outfits, Indian jewelry, Indian mithai, it was just open up a whole new world. You were talking about your youth and the cinema and things like that, so if you would like to move on and tell me about your work and bring us up to date what happened from then till? So we had this wonderful experience and my dad was right to move to Leicester because there was a lot of, and there was a far bigger Asian community here and so therefore lot more Hindu cultural activities going on and religious activities and we discovered there were temples here that we could visit at any time you know, and cinemas that we could visit at anytime. And we slowly started to come back to our original roots that we developed in Africa. And I then, as I started to become an adult and go into the work field, I also discovered that it was quite interesting that in the local authority here, at the city council, there were Asian councilors here and then eventually we got an Asian and hey we got Keith Vaz. So there was a, there was a lot more hope now and there was lot more equal opportunities and so if you wanted to practice your religion, there was not any fear anymore or any feeling of isolation, you could just do it. And you were not you know, a minority anymore, you were a majority. So that was quite fabulous to have like a fantastic major Diwali festival here in Leicester, so when the lights were first put on here in Leicester, I mean it is now the biggest light show, this side of Mowbray, the whole of Melton road now is lit up and you know, with these wonderful-wonderful lights and they close the road down, people come from all over the U.K. and abroad to take part in this kind of, festival and you know, enjoy the atmosphere. So that is fantastic and the Navratri festival and Holi you know, all these things and Dusshera, we have now got the biggest festivals you know, Hindu festivals in the U.K. here which is such a joy and it is. Okay, practically it is a nightmare in terms of traffic management and, noise you know, in terms of the fire works, some thing is like that but apart from that, its just so wonderful to be able to practice your own religion in a safe environment without feeling the, you know, you need to be ashamed or you need to be in fear. So that was one of the major differences that I noticed. And secondly as I became an adult, I automatically did what my mom and dad had hoped for anyway they wanted me to sort of, move away slightly from the western culture and start getting involved more with Hinduism. And so because I have always been interested in the arts, I actually joined a group that was singing Hindi film songs, so we formed a little pop band if you like and we started singing Hindi film songs. I also then formed a family group, whereby every year for nine nights solid we sang Hindu religious songs at Navratri. I was quite amazed that by the time I was seventeen I knew the Aarti from start to finish, the Jai Santoshi Maa Aarti, without having to look at the book because when I was little okay I always used to look at the words because I never remember them. And but in Walsall because I had forgotten my Gujarati, I could no longer look at this book and remember the words even. So you know, quite a lot of us kids at that time, just used to know the chorus if you like, 'Jai ho, jai ho, Maa Jagdambe' and then the rest of it we just mumbled it through because we did not know the words. And so as you know, as I, in my late twenties, sorry, late teenagers and in my early twenties, I then discovered that I could actually sing the whole of the Aarti without having to look up the words that was fantastic. I also then started to ask a lot of questions about Hinduism, by going to the temple and going to, by taking part in these activities because in Walsall I had no one to ask. So here there were people who were like teachers if you like and Gurus who could do that and so my dad got the idea that, hang on a minute may be we owe to start a, something called a, the 'Shishukunj' which is the same as a Sunday school for Christian children. So he was the pioneer in that sense here in Leicester, he set up the very first 'Shishukunj' the Sunday school at the Sanatan temple here in Leicester. So that was quite fascinating and I used to be able to go in there and ask him, not now just as my father but as my Guru if you like every Sunday. We also had magazines in Gujarati and Hindi that taught you, everything you wanted to know about Hinduism. There is a very large Hare Krishna group here and that was quite a joy for me because I could not read not 100 percent you know, fluent in Gujarati and they had the Bhagwat Gita in English. So I had access to that, so I could start reading it and understand it, not that I do still 100 percent, I am working on it. So bit by bit I started to develop my knowledge and develop my interest and I, but not blindly, I also started to question things because I said to my mom, 'hang on a minute, why do you have to crush that coconut on the wheels of that car', but it was when my brother was getting married and I was like, hang on what is all that about and I know it is something to do with good luck, but hang on a minute by crushing that tire, by crushing that coconut on the tire you are going to say, you are going to damage the tire if not anything else. But it was just a tradition that they carried on because in India, if it was a horse pulled or a bullock driven cart, that is what they did, so to bless the journey, bless the you know, vehicle whatever it was at that time, and now it was a modern car with petrol and diesel, so that is what they did. Oh! Okay, all right, but mummy why cannot women go to religious functions when they are in their period what is all that about, and so I was told that hang on a minute that is because practically in those earlier days of Hinduism, we did not have the kind of, hygienic facilities or the sanitary provision made for women and at that time at the month you are not really feeling too good or anything, so it is best if you just stay in your bedrooms, stay out of the way, do not go into the kitchen, do not touch food or anything like that, and so that gives you the opportunity to have a rest as well and because it is not hygienic, if you have not got like proper, like now a days, you get, you know, throw away, flushable sanitary protection in public toilets now a days, whereas in those days you didn't. So it was best for women to stay at home during that time of the month. Oh, okay, but dad, you know, why is it that men can do this ceremony at the funeral like the eldest born son can do it, but the girl cannot. Well it is not because we are sexist or Jaat, Hinduism is not sexist, in fact, it is the opposite, we were actually taking care of our women, because in those days women were very fragile and very sensitive and they would cry. So a funeral, because in India would have to take place immediately, whereas here you have to wait for an appointment at the local funeral parlor, but in those days you know, as soon as, somebody died, you took them to the funeral sight and they were cremated. Now the women would be so upset and so you know, in a state of crises and so devastated and upset and be fainting all over the place. So it was not appropriate for women to attend the funeral, only the men did it. But now a days because women are lot stronger and you know they are not the weaker sex and they are not feeble females anymore, so if they want to go, so of course they are welcomed to go. But that was the reasoning behind it. Oh, I see so why is it that as soon as you have been to a funeral, you have to come home and have a bath straight away, to wash the spirit off, that is what I was taught as a child, is that right? Yes, because, when you go to a funeral and there has been a cremation what happens is all that stuff flies at you and so it is better if you come home and then just wash all that, all the ashes and the dust off yourself and so that is why we still do that here. So a lot of these traditions and practices are blindly carried on now when perhaps there is not a need for it. But, so I see Hinduism now evolving and changing and a lot of the younger people now putting their own interpretation in to it. It is like in the old days okay we lit a candle, but now we have electricity so we use electric bulbs at Diwali time to light up the whole of Melton road and celebrate Diwali. So in that sense Hinduism is growing and evolving and I find that one of the best things about living in this kind of a modern culture. What actually makes you, yourself a Hindu? What actually makes you, yourself a Hindu? What are your personal beliefs, because I mean there is all the festivals and things like that, but for you personally it can be a different experience you know? I mean I see Hinduism is a way of life, it is certainly not a religion, it does not have a founder, it does not have any kind of strict rules that has set in stone anywhere you know, and so I think, it is a wonderful way of life for me because it gives me total freedom to take those values of the religion rather than the rules, it is the values which I hold very dear in my day to day life and I do not even have to think about it. Its the values of being kind to each other, its the values of appreciating what God has done for us and in terms of like you know, appreciating that God is everywhere and in everything. So you do not necessarily have to just go to the temple and worship you know, an idol, you can actually buy an act of kindness still be worshipping God. By being generous in your charitable work, you are still worshipping God, by making sure that the most vulnerable members of our society and our community is and our families are looked after, you are still worshipping God and those are the facets if you like, the values of Hinduism that I hold very dear and I practice everyday and I do not even think about it, as I said its become a way of life for me now as a Hindu. I do not eat meat, because, I just think that is simply cruel and why is there a need for that you know, when there are other foods that you could eat, in order to survive and maintain your humanity and so by that way I can be a human, but I can also be a humane in my humanity as a Hindu and that is the most valued lesson that I hold very dear about Hinduism. And also, you know, why be cruel to children or the elderly or the one's that are vulnerable and weak in our society and so whenever possible I do lots of voluntary work, lots of charitable work, so that the children, the elderly, those that are less you know, able-bodied than us, the one's that are inferior, can get that extra support and so I share my love of Hinduism and if you like my love of God through those charitable acts, as a community worker. Do you have a, like a family Guru or a family deity or a Murti that you worship? Yes, Mataji. Right, okay. Mataji she gives strength and you know, I mean the story is quite old now that everyone knows the story of Mataji and how you know people thought that women did not have the strength and she could not do anything, I mean, who is going to kill this horrible, evil dictator of a monster. But it was a woman who came, but so in that sense our family, my family deity is Mataji. And so Navratri again holds a special you know, we have this great love affair with Navratri because women are not only capable of giving birth, but they are also capable of taking life, that is how strong we can be and we are that strong, if you allow ourselves to be that strong. How do you identify yourself now, because you have grown up in the U.K., you are from Africa, your family is from India, you practice Hinduism, what? I know it is so incredibly wonderful. And how do you identify yourself, if somebody asks you? You know, I, my passport is British, but I was not born in England and yet, I am very much a part of the British way of life. I was born in Kenya, but I am not African, really but I imbibe so much of the African culture, you know, which I loved so much. And I do not have an Indian passport and I was not born in India, yet I am totally at home with the Indian, you know, experience and culture. So really in that sense, I think because of the advent of travel and the electronic medium, I think the world has become smaller and therefore our vision has become wider, our knowledge has or should become wider in that sense and so I just see myself as a Hindu woman of the world, you know, and the universe. Where do you see as home then? Home is with the people that I love and adore and that is my immediate family as always, that is my mom and my brothers and my sister in-laws and my nieces and my nephews, my father sadly passed away, three years ago. But really I am equally at home with people that I love and people who love me. I have no territory or cultural boundaries that you know, keep me in one place. I can be equally at peace with myself wherever I am, because I am at peace with myself, so within my own self I do have a lot of you know, self respect which I think Hinduism has given me and I do have a lot of love for myself and that is where my family have come in, they have given me that. But the biggest thing I suppose is the fact that as an Asian second generation, Hindu woman, I have migrated only once and it is been thankfully a very-very exciting experience but not as painful or as difficult as it was for my parents or for their parents. They did it twice, you know, they did it once from India to Africa and then again from Africa to England. So, I draw great strength on that and I am completely overwhelmed and amazed that how well they have done with that experience and I can never ever thank them enough for that wonderful-wonderful journey that they took, that has made me what I am to here, today in the U.K. Do you have, because this might, this is going to be held in an archive and you know, people might be listening to in the future for research or anything, do you have any one final that you would like these people to hear? Please, please, please, if you want to know anything about Hinduism just keep looking and keep asking. Do not let the fact, that there are so many myths and misunderstandings around Hinduism put you off. Its not about worshipping hundreds of Gods, its not about idol practice, its not about double standards and its not about keeping the lowest low and the you know, the upper hierarchy as in the Brahmins higher, or any of that no, Hinduism is not a religion, it does not have any rules set in concrete, its a wonderful way of life for everyone, and regardless of who you are or what your background is. Thank you very much.