Swaminarayan Community 29th March, 2004 sound Sound Cassette English Abhijeet Joshi Oral Interview Interview 075 Suryakant Patel Male 80 Kenya

U.K. EN Gujarati, Hindi, English I would like to start off interview with the whereabouts your family background and feel free to tell you know to talk as much as you like basically, I will ask the prompter questions but then you just. You are my friend so I got to talk frankly. Okay. Thank you. Okay so if you can maybe tell me where your parents were born? And where they grow up, just a little bit about their life may be. Well both my parents were born in India in Gujarat state and they went to from India to Kenya in the beginning of the century. Okay. And the life was very tough. There were no Steamers that time, they went by boat; and the boat went lost, so it took about nearly 8 weeks to reach the place called Mombasa, the port of Mombasa about nearly 8-9 weeks and the time was very-very tough for them at that time really. Do you know what year it was that they came or so? Beginning of the century. I think in 1905 roughly, before 1905. And do you know what villages they were from or towns in Gujarat. Well there was in Gujarat a village called Palana, Palana is near a town very well known in Nadiad. And they both came from there really. Okay. And what was you are father's profession then before he left for Kenya? Nothing my grandfather was a farmer and my father also went to the very young age, he left India for Kenya at a very young age really. All right, okay so he was. Life was very-very tough in those days. So did you are grandfather live in same town, they all left together? No my grandfather always lived in India. He never been to Kenya. Okay. So how old then was your father then when he left? I am not too sure but he must be round about fifteens probably. Very young. Fifteen around, yeah. But he was, he was married? Did you say? He was married yeah. In the, in the olden days they used to get married at a very young ages I mean I my self, I myself got married at the age of seventeen. At the age of seventeen I got married. And how old was your wife? She's just same age as me almost. Seventeen yeah? Yeah. Okay so he moved to Africa so then how did he stay in Mombasa or did he? No, he stayed in a place called Kenya right? And I think at that time there was a, also a very tough life but, they used to, used to go, find a job was very difficult. They used to go from village to villages on a donkey. Selling goods on a donkey. Just the two of them or did they have relations there as well? No my, no my father, my father. And my father and my uncle went over the same time more or less. They used to go sell bits and pieces, want to make a living on a donkey and a, unimaginable now a days really you know, to go on a donkey but that time was very-very tough and that went for some time, then he joined the Army, you know the people there. Which Army was that? It was British Army. British Army. That time then he left that and then he went to work for some day hours, few different grocery shops. Then he left there, he also joined, joined work with Kenya Farmers Association. All right! Then after some years he worked there then he bought a business of his own, grocery shop. Okay. That's how he started. Okay, then did he, when he joined the Army, was he in the Army for very long or? I think. Was there, was there what was happening at that time and was that? I think the Army needed the people and they was recruiting the people at that time to, because that time was a tough time as well. I think this World War broke out and things like that. The first, First World War? I think so. Yeah. Yeah, there want, they wanted people really to be home guards and things like that. So that's time he joined but I think they stayed for few years, I don't know exactly how many years. Okay. Stayed for few years. It wasn't a big career then? No, no. Okay so when he set up his grocery shop which city was that in or town? It was in a village called Theca near Nairobi. Near Nairobi. Near Nairobi, a village called Theca and that's where he started. And the, the name of the town, I remember the store was "City General Store". I worked there for few years. After school hours I used to come there and help him out. Yeah. So that's where you were born then as well? I was born in Kenya. Okay, and did you have brothers and sisters? Yes, I got two brothers and a sister. Older or younger? Younger, all are younger. All are younger so you are the eldest. So you had to be responsible? Oh! Yes very tough. Okay, so tell me just a little bit about life for you growing up in, in the time that you grew up? Just tell me a little bit about it? Okay, first of all I lived in India for, up to the age of eight because the time was, that time was tough. So my mother left with my grandfather and my grandmother when I was one and a half year old only. Right! And I grew up with my grandparents till I reach the age of eight and after the age of eight I went to Kenya and then I went to Kenya in 1948 okay, and was still young, young boy really at that time. And I used to go to school there in Nairobi then my father moved out from Nairobi to a place called Theca. I used to go to school in Theca, it was called 'Theca Primary School'. And most of the mediums in Gujarati and English language was Gujarati main language. And the subject was taught English and Mathematics and Geography and things like that, it was okay. Very free life, those days you didn't even have shoes in your feet. No shoes, yeah! You go to school without a shoes on you know very tough. Then the slowly and slowly things started changing you have the uniform; you are wearing the shoes and things like that. But there was free life. Nobody takes notice of anything you do what you want to do. Okay, and was there, was there much interaction between say you know if there was White British children or Hindu children or Black children or you know a Muslim or was there much interaction like that or it was, it was fine then yeah? No problem, fine no problem, yeah. The word racism never heard that time. Didn't exist. Okay, as then as you grew older then, did you, you went to, to High school or? I left at the very primary school really because the time was tough and see primary school, I went to the standard seventh. Then when I was in 1957, I went to India after probably about ten years after I came. I got married in India. Was that arranged? Sort of arranged marriage, it was a very, very funny really. Sort of. Very funny, very funny means, my uncle was very liberal minded, my grandfather, my grandmother was very liberal minded, very liberal minded. And they see now this girl which I have got married now, they seen her and my grandmother said this is, said to my uncle this girl is very, very good, she has known for many years and this is the ideal girl for your nephew. So uncle said yeah, okay, we will see her. So we saw, we went to a village called Dungral, this is about ten miles from where we lived. And we went; we went in a cart you know cart driven by the bulls right! Ox and all the way dust flying around, you know we dust going, we went there and we went there and my future father in-law received us. We, we talked for few while, little while. I saw my wife, future wife for a very short time and she was a very pleasant looking, good-looking girl you know and very little to say really. Okay, so we left and my future father in-law they said okay we will take you back from where you came so, he made an arrangement to travel, but we said, I said the girl is good so we said okay we will get married. My mother was opposing. Okay, why? My mother, this is the olden time. My mother said no she would like some better village. Okay. Old fashion yeah. Yeah. Old fashioned, better village my father didn't mind. My grandmother didn't mind, my grandmother but my mother mind that was very tough, yes and no, yes and no, yes and no, and this was happening. And I said to my mother if I am not getting married I am going back to Kenya, I'm not going to get married again. I sort of playing blank, blanked and my father was very angry "How dare you can say to your mother like that, how dare you?" He was very, very upset. "How dare you talk to your mother like that? I said well, this is it, I just represented what I wanted to say, I am not getting married as I said just send me back you know. Eventually after having few words of exchange, well I didn't exchange, you just listen, you dare not say a single word to your parents, you never raise your voice and he just disciplined me for half an hour, strict voices and strict words listened, and finally he said, "Okay, because I have displeased you, saying so much harsh words, I am going to please you, you can get married, so okay". I was pleased then but then life was tough, I didn't realize that it's going to be that tough. Why do you say it was tough, what do you mean by it was tough? What! This was a frank opinion yeah. If you, if you want to tell me that is. Why not, so I went to Kenya, the Government of Kenya won't allow my wife to come back because she was under age, under eighteen, so she has to wait before she come. So she waited for a year, year, then she joined me and she was very good, very pleasant, very helpful to the others, neighbors and everybody, but my mother never liked her from the day beginning and that's created a big problem, you know when the mother doesn't like, mother, mother in-law doesn't like the, it creates a big problem in the family. That went for a long, long time. My wife was so unhappy, I was so unhappy really, but there is nothing much you can do and then all the disturbance in the houses you know, house really, and I said to my wife, I got to get out of here, I am going to get out. So I said to my father I want to go, I want to go to England for studies, you know, my father said, "no". And I was helpless, I was only eighteen by that time, I used to help my father in his business you know, not the shop, insurance agency business and building societies and office, so I used to help him there. He went to India, you know some may be holiday, I don't know. And then he met some spiritual master there, not a Swaminarayan faith he was not Swaminarayan that time. He said, "well, I have got my son and we got a lots of different opinion, lots of different opinion, we don't get along in the house" and the spiritual master said, "yes, although you don't get along in the house, but that is the son, who will do lot of things for you". My father said I can't believe it, because opposite, completely opposite nature you know I can't believe it". So he was, when he came back he talked to my mother he said, he had a word with this and he said well that son will do something good for you. So my father had a change of heart, he said do you want to go and study, I said yeah, he said, "Okay go England". So this is my chance so I wrote a letter to Cambridge College to learn electronics you know, Radio and Television learning. So I wrote a letter, I got the admission; so I came to England on my own, left my wife there. She had a very tough life there. With your mother? Mother in-law and I studied for, nearly one and a half year, in that time I was communicating with my wife. My wife wrote very frank letters you know and nothing against my parents, nothing against my parents and because of the friction, my father used to write this is because, because you are there, your wife must be complaining about us, this, this, this, this, that you know. So I said okay, so no, he didn't believe me, so what I did, I had all my wife's letter with me so I posted my wife's letters to my father. I said you read it, you read it, see if there is against anything. She said clearly that we must not contradict with our parents we should regard our parents as, as our Gods right! These are the words in every letter, nice letter and my father, my father read those letters and my goodness this is what we thought this is what things about us after all this. So he had a change of heart again, that went on. Then I finished my studies, I came in 1960's, I finished, I was started working in 1962, I started a job with DR television. You stayed here? I didn't want to go back, not after facing the tough life. So I stayed here. I said to my father that I want to call my wife, my father said, "if you got guts, you better pay for your fares, for your wife's fare". So I said okay, so to those days I was only getting seven pound in my hand, seven pound wages right. So out that five ginnies was the rent, five ginnies 5.5 shillings doesn't live you much, does it? And transportation I used to travel from (inaudible) transportation, what does leave you for food, not much I think much really? That was tough, so I saved up and saved up but I said to myself that first salary I get, one month's salary, what I have saved, I will give it to my sister. So I saved and saved and saved, can you imagine how much it takes to save thirty pounds. Thirty pounds, to save thirty pounds in those days in 1962 you are talking about six months. Six months to save thirty pounds, so I saved thirty pounds. So I said to my sister that look I am sending you thirty pounds right, please buy something for me because I made that, the first, when I worked first time I will give you the salary, so I gave her the thirty pounds. Then I started saving money, saving money took me another year. I saved the money for the fares "ninety pounds!" when I saved ninety pounds I said to my father this is ninety pounds you send my wife. Time was tough, tough, very tough. And my wife came there I took some time off because I was very hard worker the company, they gave me time off to fetch my wife from the Airport but the, the plane was delayed, didn't come that day somehow, so I went back again to work second day, I was worried about my job because you know, obviously you have to look after your job, without the job it's no good because I was a very hard worker they said, "okay, you can go". So I went to the Airport to receive her and I said I can't find my wife, I said to the hostess my wife is supposed to be on this plane she is not here. I said what's your name, I know her name, and then I didn't recognize her. I couldn't recognize her, she has lost so much of, she has lost so much of weight. She was only weighing, weighing eighty pounds, eighty pounds! I do have a, I felt terrible, I felt terrible. My goodness you have lost so much of weight and she came here with a torn Cardigan and not warm clothes. Winter, October freezing cold and I, I really felt terrible I said, "My goodness really what a state to come you know." Anyway so she came here and I, I, had a double room, one room to eat, one room to, same room to eat you, you sleep in the same room you eat at same all your thing, you had your wash, sponge bath you know what do you call it in the same room and I said to my wife well you can wear, wear, my cardigan and she, you can wear my pajamas, I used to give her my pajamas you know, this is the thing really. To stay warm. It stayed warm you know pajama. The winter very heavy, when it snowed, the snow used to come in the winter, in the, in the, through the windows, shelf windows you know, full of tough. But anyway well we survived. My wife didn't spoke a single word of English. I said will you study? So she used to read English, she really slow, slow study English. Then in 1963 well I, I met a friend, he was both very, he was doing accountancy, he was lonely, I was feeling lonely so we decided to stay together. So we hired a room, one room for him, one room for me, so we stayed together, we three us used to eat together, so we stayed there. After about a year or so he said we must have, do something really can't afford, we can't save money. So somebody from East London who was a devotee of Swaminarayan mission he said, "well, why don't you come to live in East, the houses are cheaper, buy a house". Where were you at this point, before that? In, in (inaudible) Park. Okay, right. Not London. So I said okay, so we had a look at the house in North London, East London cheap, 4250 pounds. So I applied for the council mortgage, we got the mortgage for 4000 pounds, 250 pounds deposit. So luckily we saved two hundred and fifty pounds, so put the deposit down and we bought the house. That's all where we started from. Yeah. Then again we had to, we had to pay for mortgage things and yeah. So we said we will have couple of students and my wife used to keep all this students you know. Yeah. Cook the food, things like that, and because it became so popular. There was West Ham College there and because my wife, she was a good cook and she looked after the people like you know your own family and people, students used to come, please if there is a vacancy we want have place in your house and please if you have vacancy we want to have place in your house you know so that went on. So we lived in Forest Gate for thirteen years and then we moved out on to Home Church right. And that's where we started from then we bought a shop, we bought a shop and we bought a shop, a paper shop. Okay. Very successful shop. Before you bought the shop, were you working in that same place or you left? No I left the job when we bought a shop and then we started, five years a lockup shop. It wasn't very much, just getting by, getting by. My wife used to help me as well. Just walking distance from the house. Fifteen minutes. How did she find life in the U.K. your wife, because? She adapted it slowly and slowly. She adapted it. But then while working in the shop she learned the English. And she was very loved by neighbors honestly you wouldn't believe it. And they used to say where is she gone? Where is she gone? They were asking about where is she gone? And then I bought a shop so that we got a place with the residence. A couple of miles away from the East, very good house and people used to come from very far to in our paper shop. There was another shop exactly like me, another paper shop next to me. And people say you must be mad, mad buying another paper shop. Well it doesn't matter. And we bought it. We bought it. But it was very good a place, gold mine, people loved it, very clean shop, my wife was getting along with people very nicely, the children very nicely and because of her nature the shop became successful. Because of her nature only merely nature, very-very good, kind getting along with the people, children and there were very good. Even today when the neighbor says, oh we will really miss you because of the time we have spent since here. Then I joined the temple. My job was being in a construction, my spiritual leader was here in the old temple and he said, we need some volunteers to do any work like cleaning or polishing stones and I said to my Guru that I haven't done anything for the temple. So I sold the shop that time. I was working in --. Where? Essex managing a paper shop myself and my wife. So I said to my wife I want to go Saturday, so I used to come one day for polishing stones, every Sunday I used to put her eighty miles journey return journey and then come polishing stones slowly I started then I increased from one day to two days. And I said to my wife, you have got to do something, because construction is coming. I missed my spiritual leader in the old temple. You know Pramukh Swami. He was 25 of us in the old building. My turn came to say him, I said swami I will do exactly what you want me to do. He didn't say a single word. He just looked at me, and that look I can remember in my heart today. That's it, that was it. So I was polishing stones and one of the Monks, Sadhus, Aksharmuni Swami, he is a civil engineer by qualification. He was supervising the site. He was observing me. He said, Suryakant would you come in the office? So I went to his office, site office and he said, would you do me a favor. I said, Swami when the Monks' ask I will do not one, I will do two favors. There's 'no' does not exist in my dictionary. I said that. He said I was observing the way the work is going and the way the work is progressing it won't be finished even the pinnacles finished, it won't finish. So we want some commitment from you, would you mix some cement for us for the workmen and make sure that there is plenty of mixture of sand and cement and bricks. So the work can progress fast. I said Swami I will do it. Never mixed before. So I started new job, mixing sand and cement and all day I worked and my body was, my muscles were twitching because I had never done this work. My God I have got a heart attack. I saw the doctors and the doctors said, no you haven't got a heart attack, you have never done this work before so that's why you got it. So it was October freezing cold mixing sand and cement and I stood there and said, Swami I will give you a promise that I will do exactly what you want me to do. Please give me the strength to overcome the problems, forgive me and my wife and my son and my daughter, anything we have done wrong, give me the strength to overcome the problems. And I used to mix the sand and cement, the hours went, the days went, the weeks went and the temple was completed. Temple was completed, the biggest what you call memories of my life and one day I will just tell you that, I was mixing sand and cement before the John, the crane driver comes in, I used to keep the same mixture ready. And because of the machine you know which mixes the sand and cement, I had worked so hard, it had spits and I put the spade in there and the spade got caught in that and it revolved me with that spade and threw me up. The spade went and I had a spit in my stomach so it was bleeding. So I said to the guy I think I could need a medical attention. So I went to the hospital, they says took some stitches and I said okay. You should be okay it is superficial, nothing drastically. I came back, trustees came and see me, have one week off because of accounts, So you know Aksharmuni Swami you know the one who gave me, told me to help, I told the Swami I won't do it today but I am going to be here tomorrow. I don't want to do it because I suppose my spiritual master, they said that, we say that take one week off I said no. So any way I came. I had a dressing for ten days. I used to go home I used to put the dressing in the bathroom behind you know the hot water cylinder. I used to hide the dressing in the hot water cylinder so my wife won't find out. Yeah, otherwise she will stop me, no. But that went for ten days then I told her what happened. So that's the biggest memory of my life. People can take your money, you can loose your money. But nobody can take that memories of mixing sand and cement for the finest temple in London in U.K. and I pleased my master. I have done what he want me to do right. And today I feel proud of my house. Mandir is God's house, but Mandir is my house. Very important and now I am here fulltime I am on a staff now. The hall was fully packed with people after the opening of the temple and Atmaswarup Swami was the head of the London region. I was sitting in front rows, Suryakant come here, what you are going to do now, temple is finished. I said Swami I will do a job. I will do something. He said no, we need you, come and work for us. So I said okay. I said Swami I don't want to work because working means I don't like to take money from the temple, so he said no because Pramukh Swami said we have to hire some staff and he has put your name down. I said well okay so I joined and I look after the school, I look after the visitors and I give the right message of Hinduism and I give the right message of monks, what do we do here, what is our purpose of it. Irrespectively faith whether they believe in God or not. And our spiritual master Pramukh Swami told us the day when he departed from here. He said whoever comes in this temple when he comes to that door think there is a God present in him whether he believes in God or not. And please pray for any one who comes in this temple to give the ultimate salvation and I do my Puja, Puja you know. My Puja takes half an hour and finally I said to the God is my Pramukh Swami, Swami as per your instructions I am praying but please give ultimate salvation who comes here whether he believes in God or not. I am doing one Mala. Our Mala has got 108 beads and I chant Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan, 108 beads and I fulfill that obligation of, commitment, which I made to my Swami since last eight years. And if I do the right thing in the temple in the interest of the temple to please my Swami then my Swami will be glad, he doesn't have to be here. He will be glad that I am doing his work. And the God will think that my, what you call the member or the devotees are doing my job. All right and this is it. And can I ask just a little bit about, kind of going back just a little bit, to when you came to the U.K. just about because you told me how your job progressed? And how your job progressed and how you moved on, and how you got involved with the temple and everything. But I just want to ask you about you know it's regular everyday life in the U.K. because when you came here, you came in 1960. Yeah. Tough, very tough. Was there any temple there, was any community or just buying groceries and you know things like that, how did you get those things? We used to go from Brussel's Park to Marble Arch. There was a familial family called Prahaladji. And he used to have a flat in Marble Arch in Seymour Place, #12 Sherwood Court. We used to go every Saturday, half a dozen people of us right. We used to pray, the Holy Scriptures and things like that, you know that's how we started. Life was very tough. Very-very tough. Job situation was very tough. The racism was very tough, racism. Did you experience any racism? Oh yeah!! Yes. Could you give me an example or? Well look first of all when I came to England in 1960s I stayed with a friend for one day. And the landlord said you can stay for one night, not tomorrow. So the friend who was staying says look you have to find a room really. Go to the News Paper shop, there's a notice board and look for a vacancy for a room. And every time I looked it said no colors, no Irish. And I didn't know what colors mean. I didn't know at that time. And when I knocked on the door, I said I came for the room. They slammed the doors, sorry no colors. So it went there. Then I found out what the colored means, yeah. So it went for, but I found a room, all day, all day I went looking for the room. And I found a room at ten o'clock at night in the old lady's house. There were two old ladies, retired old ladies, bed and breakfast 3.50 pounds. So we stayed there. Job same thing. That time there was no social security business, there may be but it was virtually not possible. And it was very tough. I was very desperate for the job because I cannot live with my wife. If I was earning only seven pounds, no job and no, five ginnies rent you can't afford, so what you are going to do? One day I was short of money. And I was on my own and I had to pay my landlady 3 pounds 5 shillings. I was living the family. And didn't have the money so I said what, but I had a ring. So I had to pay 3 pounds yeah, so I went to Oxford Street to sell the ring. I went to the jeweler shop and they said 2 pound 15 shillings and one said at the most 3 pounds, at the most. And in Kenya it's cost 15 pounds. So I said no I need 3 pounds 50 if you can give me 3 pounds 50 it's yours. I can't give for three pounds, I still am short of money. So I went to sell and nobody would give me 3 pounds 50, so I came back. And a friend with whom I was living with you know, I said look I have got a problem about money. He said okay what I will do, I will give you some money and we settled at that time. I have still got that ring, I have still got that ring with me. A long story, my friend was on his own, his wife was in India. I was three of us was there and his name was Babubhai and I said Babubhai, you eat with us, you stay with us. So we shared the accommodation so we shared it for about couple of years. And then when we bought a house in Forest Gate, my wife was there and Babubhai had a two daughters in India, so I was communicating with him, his brother. I said Babubhai why don't you call your daughter? He said no I can't, I can't afford it. So I talked to his brother in India, I said you make the traveling arrangement for both daughters five years and seven years old. And I have saved some money about 150 pounds, so I paid for the fares, 150 pounds they made the arrangement for the girls to be sent here. They both came here. My wife used to look after both the girls five and seven years okay. And Babubhai was there, and before we bought the house sorry, before we bought the house before the girls came in, Babubhai, he had a, I had 250 pounds and he had 150 pounds. Saved up. And then what happened was it and what happened, I said to Babubhai, Babubhai said you go and buy a house I will give you deposit of 150 and I said no you buy. So I gave him. Do you want to pause it or is it okay? So I gave him 250 pounds, first you buy. And when your time come you give the money back to me, you can have it. So I gave him 250 pounds, he had a 150 pounds. So he bought the house. And we decided that look my wife does the labor for cooking everything like that okay? And you keep rest of them. So we had made that arrangement so she gets 1 pound 50 something like that you know. For washing up and things like that and ironing, okay. So that went for a couple of years, then the girls came in. And then Babubhai some how, this is a long story, wasn't getting along with his wife so I should call your wife and he say no. I said no, you can't have that your girls are here you don't call your wife it's not just on. So I wrote to his brother make arrangements. So his wife came in. And in the mean time Babubhai had a T.B. He was in hospital. My wife was taking food everyday for him. And I said to Babubhai your wife here. Whether you like or not. Things went and went and then slowly after six months they got along with terms nicely. So that was good. And that whole story began from then you know. But it was give and take that time. We helped each other out. Just you had to get a look at along and get by. Yeah, but the time as I said very tough time. This is, today is nothing. 1960, 70's and 75 worst time tough time for the racism. Lot of racism, you can't get a house, the jobs the staff very tough. And let me put it this way, today about the Indians own business, houses. Nobody gave them free. No. Nobody gave them free. We worked hard. I will give you a one example. When I was working with TV DR Television and I bought a house in Home Church I went to see them. The old English couple was there. We liked the house the price was thirteen thousand and five hundred so we agreed. Not knocking down, we agreed. I said I will pay the deposit and first thing in the morning 9 o'clock so he said okay. I went to the agent before the agent opens up the office. He opened up after five minutes. I gave him the deposit I said look I came to pay the deposit and he said no that's gone. I said how come? I went there at seven o'clock, how come it is gone? I said be frank, he said well some how the people does not want to sell to the colored people. So I said okay. So I went back in the evening to see the owners of the house I wanted. And I said Mr. Himptey, can I come in for a few minutes. He said yeah. I said look nobody was there after seven o'clock and I went there to pay the deposit. You said okay you can buy the house. Now one thing I want to say you is, yeah we think about the neighbors. What the neighbors will think? That you are selling the house to the Indians, you know. So I said okay Mr. Himptey, I admire what you say but I am buying your house by paying money, right? If anybody, if I want to buy a house, if you don't sell me somebody in this street will sell me the house. Because I am paying the money I am not having free. Somebody will sell me the house. And next thing is really is some day when you are not going to go away right? What have I done wrong, I being an Indian tell me. And I said it's up to the choice is yours. If you don't sell me don't sell me. But if you say this house is sold, that is a wrong really. So he said hang on, hang on, I will have a word with my wife, both husband and wife went to the next room. Came back and said Mr. Patel the house is yours. We won't change your mind, so you can pay your deposit and the house is yours. I said sure? He said oh! Yeah. So he rang the agent and the agent rang us here that yeah he has changed his mind the house is yours. That was it. Can I ask you just you have mentioned your involvement with the Swaminarayan community here and it's been you have been involved pretty much since you have come to the U.K. Can you tell me just a bit of how your religious practices have changed or evolved over the years from when you were in you know when you were in Africa? In Africa, in Africa I didn't knew much about Swaminarayan mission, didn't knew at all. I was going to temple. Hindu temple, believe in any believe in Krishna, believe in Shiva, no particular sect. But when I came here I used to go to Marble arch that will be closer by sitting there and stuff. But in 1985 I understood more about the scriptures slowly and slowly and slowly, a bit cultural festival of Indianalism that was in 1985, I was involved in cleaning the places you know and I got slowly and slowly involved. But I knew more about this since the opening and since I joined the temple and construction. And that has built a very close bond with the temple. I understood my spiritual master that my salvation lies in his, in his only. Because he can see the present he can see the future as well and the past. There are lots of experience people has talked about it and he can see the future as well. So really who am I and I want my salvation. Everybody has to work but you also the human life is the most prestigious life God has given on this earth and we have to we have to we have to really attain the ultimate goal of this salvation. No birth and rebirth right? And purify your self by doing good things. Very strong belief now. Can you tell me just a little bit more in the detail about the beliefs or the morals that you, that you have lived your life by then? Our Code of Discipline, called Shiksha Patri, very tiny book. The code of, many years ago a French lady from France done a research on the Shiksha Patri. Her name was Miss Marrison, right. Code of Discipline is a very small book but she has done a PhD on that Code of Discipline. So it said if you are, rules for a married men, rules for monks, rules for divorced people. I observed the rules for a married man. One man one woman, right? You don't look the other woman the other way round, right? You respect them with the Code of Discipline. You don't look things that you are not supposed to look because otherwise impurity goes in your eyes. Even the television, when you see the television you ignore the bad part of it. Right you don't want to see that bad part. Really so really that's the Code of Discipline. I watch because television is something news, I like the gardening programme, I like the house building programme, I like the nature programme, all that kind of programme I like it really. But not everything, which comes on the television. So that Code of Discipline is good. At the same time we pray, my wife cooks the food what ever we eat, we offer to the God. That is a very important part of it right? And if you want to progress spiritual health, a devotional song can give you a pleasure. But you cannot remove the impurities, which you got within you, ego, jealous and anger. For that you need a spiritual guide line. For that you need the advice from the monks. For that you need to listen to the monks. For that you have got to see the, observe the life of the monks. And that's the very important part of and that I have understood, really. Okay. And every our spiritual leader says, every one has got the right to pray in their own faith. And regard the faith, who am I, how can I say my God is better than yours and if I hurt you your God will not please as well so that's very important part of it. We are here and passed by. We are not here forever never why don't we make a wonderful life, merry life. Okay, and at the end of this life then where is your goal, where do you-- No. Where are you aspiring to? Till we are pure we have to keep coming in this world. Now we have given opportunity to be born and progress for where we have left over. Not necessarily England, America, it could be anywhere. Progress, but we gain opportunity to be born in a faith. And then we are pure no ego, no jealousy, we live in the kingdom of God no birth and rebirth finish. That's the end of story. Yeah. Okay and how long how long will it take for people to get, is there any specific time or? Yeah, it all depends upon us. If we observe the Code of Discipline the way it's written then you can do it, progress from this life this time, no doesn't have to next life. But if it is left over you are given opportunity to born and progress from the left over so you know it goes faster. But by doing a good turn everyday in your everyday life you can cut back the cycles. Okay, and what about the youth of today, do you feel that they are more or less religious then say when you were a youth? I think in Swaminarayan faith there are more, more people are being religious minded, but in the other part of the world I think they are less really because lot of attraction to the outside world, right? All the discos and clubs and all that kind of thing, materialistic things, high flying cars and all that kind of things which drives away from spirituality. And if the parents don't go the children will not go at all. So I say even to the, the local faith Christian, the English people who come to visit the temple, I say you should go to the church. Because if you don't go your children is not going to go. It is very important to give. You can educate your children; make them doctors, engineers, teachers, accountants but if you haven't given them a true knowledge of soul you have failed as the duty of a parent. And what about learning things like you know the mother tongue or, do you think that's important? I think mother tongue is important my daughter can speak Gujarati, she cannot write, my son can speak Gujarati but he cannot write, he can understand. And they both can understand. But by I think writing and reading is very important. But unfortunately it never gave me some time because you are living in a area where Gujarati touch was out. But they can understand the language. Very important understand scriptures, very important really. Okay and this is a kind of a general question I like to get people's opinion on it, because it varies depending on what community they are come from. The caste system, is that do you think that's important today or? No. Caste system was created by the ignorant people. God never created that problem. Actually our Lord Swaminarayan wanted to abolish the caste system. He sent monks to the villages and villages to convince that this is totally wrong. And the caste system should not been existed. Today even the Indian government are giving the biggest chance to the people who came from the backward part of the families. Give them a job opportunity, Government level jobs right even if they have not enough qualification they will give them. Because to promote them. So caste system I don't think is important now. Especially not in the modern generation now a days you know. The older people may believe in that but that is something is eventually dying off. And it should be. You think it should be? Of course. Of course. And just a couple of. I think I think in England once upon a time they had things like this, but something many years ago you know that you can marry to the certain background families. Yeah certain level of. You know what happens-- something like that. You got married and because he wouldn't get a married with it, they won't allow to marry with that lady, I forgot now. King George IV or V and then he will lived in the farms. I think it was something like that, I do not remember exactly which was. He gave away his kingdom because they won't allow. Royalty won't allow to get married. Even I cant remember that. Couple of final questions then now. How do you identify yourself because you have got strong roots in India, you were born in Africa? Eight years in India, 30 years in Kenya, 42 years in England. Strong connections, you have religious connections with Swaminarayan so if somebody is to say who are you? What would you say? All right I am a modified British Indian. Why did you say modified? Modified means I admire the way of British life they live in one sense. I admire the Code of Discipline. I also admire my culture strong belief that every spiritual life is very important. I admire that you should respect your elders and the teachers whichever scriptures tells right. So I admire all that and we always respect our elders, even in India even today may be slight of changes. But in England the children are brought up in such a way I am just giving my frank opinion that the respect to the parents are losing. If they lose the respect for the parents, if they lose the respect for the teachers they are not going to respect rest of the world. So when I guide a school, when I show the slide show I say if you want to come up in the world, you must respect the parents, must respect the teachers and think what you want to do in your life everyday. Three things has to progress ahead right very important part of it and I don't look back on the local people, British people know. I don't look, I admire what they do, lot of things I like them, certain things I don't like obviously and that's in every society but I strongly believe that I am Hindu by religion and I will stick to my religion. Hindu religion, we don't convert anybody. And everybody has got the right to pray in their own faith. So these are things really and I said to my daughter as well pray every morning, right and they are modern their thinking is modern, but they still pray, that's good. Okay and where do you see as home now? This is my home. After forty-two years I went to India. After forty-two years first time in India. Two years ago. Forty-two years. What was that like? Changed a lot, changed a lot but I went on a pilgrimage. Swaminarayan Mandirs, I experienced the fill and I still remember that freshness and I really can remember forty to forty years ago the villages, I went in the farm to see and I prayed in the farm that please let the crops grow in this farm. Yeah very, very good India really but this is my home. This is my home and I sincerely say not because you are taking my interview I sincerely say I respect this country I respect the laws of this country. I obey them I would not do any thing against the country's law. Because this is my home. Okay and finally then do you have any final message or final thought to give it to people who will be listening to this interview in the future? The final thoughts is really is this, pray in your own house. Pray in your own house with the family for fifteen twenty minutes and read something good. Television watch the programmes which is good for the younger generation and for yourself as well and do a good term to the others. Do a good to the others but you must have a good faith and pray. And respect the others. That's all. Thank you very much. Thank you very much and madam, I wish you good health. Thank you very much. As well and God be with you. Thank you. Thank you.