Hindu Culture, Cast System This is an interview for the British Hindu Oral History Project. My name is Surya Bansal and it's the 19th of April. 19th of April sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview Surya Bansal 085 Bhagwanjibhai Gohil Male 61 62 Nairobi

Preston U.K. G.E.C EN Gujarati, Hindi, English First of all some background questions. Where were your parents from? My parents were, they came from India to Africa and from Africa to U.K. Okay. In London. Okay and do you know what village they are from? Pardon? Do you know what village they were from or where they are from in India? Religion you mean? I know, area, I mean where? Well, we, from Gujarat. Gujarat. Yeah. Do you know what village? Yes. Ranawa near Porbander. Yeah. Where Mahatma Gandhi was born. And so your parents moved before you were born, to Africa? Yeah. I was born in Africa when they came here. You, where were you born in Africa? Nairobi. Nairobi. Do you still have relatives in Nairobi or? Yes, I have relative. My father-in-law was there but he died but my brother-in-law and I have eldest brother as well in Nairobi. And what about in India? Well, in India I haven't got close relative but have brother-in-law. He is in Jamnagar. Right. And do you still keep in contact with your relatives? Yes, writing letters, visiting, go and visit-- So you have been back there? Yeah, I, say about 3 months ago I went to see my relative when my mother-in-law died and went to see there. So you are born in Nairobi, what school did you go to? School? Yeah. I think it was called Indian High School or something like that you know, I don't remember exactly the name. And? But it was a Indian School you know. And what was the reason for your parents moving out there? You mean from India to Africa? Yeah. Well, what happened was my father's brother was there before, you mean you know, young brother. Yeah. And he was working down here and then he see that prospect of working over here, so he called his elder brother and we get together family. In Africa? In Africa. You moved over. So it's basically for work and better prospects. Yeah. So what did your father do? He was a machinist, sewing machinist; more called a tailor. We are from a tailor family. So what was the, your childhood like there? I mean, growing up, was it, in school was it mainly a Hindu school or? No, it was mix. But at that time there was no Swahili teaching in a school but English, our own language Gujarati, Hindi all these subject was in the, in our, teaching in the school. And what year did you leave in, round about? Well, about I think when I was sixteen or something. I left the school after finishing my standard seven; they call it over there. Yeah, so that be kind of guess like G.C.S.C wouldn't it? All right, was that kind of "A"? I think equivalent to G.E.C or. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. And your schooling was that good, I mean did you? Yeah, very good. And what about socialization when you there, I mean did you mainly stick with the Hindu community or was there any with the native? The life was better than whatever you know. We were just enjoying our life like we have no any fear or anything. But after you know some time you know, when the African wants their independent. Yeah. And we have to struggle like you know. So after that point you, it started to get a bit more difficult to? Yeah. In what sort of way they manifest? What sort of ways did that take form you know, I mean like you had like a contentful life so how did it start to differ? I mean what made them decide to move to U.K.? Well. Just the climate? Yeah. No, not climate. You see, say when I born and about, say about after twenty-five years when I was about twenty-five years then this African start you know, they want their own independent, then Mao Mao you know, thing started and after getting independent then you know, they want Africananization and they have given us a choice, either you become African citizen or whatever passport you holding you go down there. So my family had a British passport so I am over here. And why did you move, why did they choose? Did you have family already here? No, I have not family anything but my one of my brother's friend was here. He came before here in, just gave me the address that you just go down there. There was nobody you know, relative anybody there. So who come over first? Did you come over on you own? Yeah, I was first to come over here. Then my whole family you know, elder brother, elder, father, mother. And so, what did you just rent the house or rent a flat to begin with? No, I went and live with my friend. Okay. You know, visit the address then I found a job and I was living with them you see. And you knew them from Uganda and when your family came over when they started to come over, when you first come over was it a bit of culture shock? I mean due to the climate? It was very difficult for us at that time because we couldn't get our own food and hard to get job because of I don't know what. I don't want to discuss that matter you know, but we have, was having a good difficult day at that time when we came here. And what year did you say you came over? Was it like? I came here in 1968. That's still quite early on? Yeah. Yeah. And so you are saying that it was difficult to get all the stuffs. Would you say like spices and also clothes or food wise or like? Yeah, food wise we couldn't get our Indian food. You see we were a vegetarian and when we came over here we couldn't find vegetable. We find but you know, very difficult because we were new, where to go or? What to find and all this thing. So what area did you end up in when you first came? Well, I live up I think, two, three months in London. Then I came over here, then my little sister came over and I came to, Preston to see my brother-in-law. And after seeing her and about month's time I got job over here, so I decide I want to stay here in Preston. So in Preston I guess there wasn't much of a Hindu community there at that time? There was but very few. Very few. And was, did any of them already invest in shops or already had shops by that time? Well, some people have started from you know, work from home selling you know our own grocery. And that so they go house to house selling our food. All right. So to mainly the Hindus in the area or? No, anybody. Anybody? Yeah. Just to back step a second, your journey over when you came, did you fly, is it flew over? Beg your pardon. Did you fly over? Yes. How, what was that like? It was the first time you flew? Yes. And then you came in, where you came in to London, Heathrow? Heathrow Airport. So you started working in Preston? Yeah. And so what, did you do socialized? Were you socializing? Was it just like temple scenario or did you socialize outside that? No, at that time there was no temple like this. But after, I think after about five, ten years you know, we Hindu get together and we decide that we should have our own place like and you know, collecting donation and money to get you know, organize. Then we bought this place you know, before you have probably not seen our place. We bought that and we socialize together and make it more comfortable for people and get together like this you know, what we say organization. Now it's big. It is, yeah. So what was here before that then, when you first came what was this place actually? Well, life was carry on you know, with, there was no more our people and there was no more like you know, what I see now it wasn't there. Yeah. In that time you see we didn't know what to do what, where to get you know, help and all this thing you know. And they actual, did you just got this, there was like private people have their own programmes at their houses and stuff; on Sunday or did people just? Yeah, we, what we used to do like you know, get together one week at my sister house, they come over next week to my house, we have a food and chat you know, Bhajans and all this. Yeah. Well, did you experience any racism here when you were in Preston or? Well, there was but not very big in big way you know, there was discrimination but. In work or in? Well, sometime in work, sometime outside you know, people called Paki and that and all this thing you know. So did you find that it makes you more like just to stick with the Hindu community here and not go sort of outside that area? Well we were Hindu so--. You stuck there any way? Stuck to our own religion. Asking just a little bit on the religious practices for you personally, was your family religious when you were growing up? Yeah from the beginning we were Hindu, believe in our own scripts Ramayan, Mahabharat, Gita, all these things And how about sort of take place, like daily was it, like did you do, like a sort of Puja in the morning or how did it take form you know was it a daily..? Well we have a small place, each Hindu have a house there's a place where every morning, in the evening we light a, you know we call a diva and take Chant a Mantra you know and some time we sing a Bhajan as well So, what was, do you have like a family Murti or a Murti at home like where you worship on your altar? Well we have so many God and Goddesses, so its difficult to say particular but we believe in Rama and Krishna and Buddha and all these. What about a family guru? Did your father have a living guru? Yes we have our own guru there in India In India? Yeah, there is a place called, you know this there is a place where we go and you have wear you know this, "kanthi" this mala like put in your, we have to go there and wear that, that is the place where we believe When you were younger do you have, when you were in Preston did you ever had Gurus or any Swamis visiting you? Oh, no, no, no since this they have build this new old temple we come here to pray and believe in just you know there is no particular that this is my Guru or anything, Yeah, and so what about in Africa when you were younger did your father had people come to stay? Sort of any Gurus? Well there were coming from the India and you know just come and preach our Ramayan. Yeah Yeah, there keep continue like they coming over here, These are kind of a little bit of generalize question but if you just answer how you feel, what you think makes you Hindu? I was born Hindu, my mother was Hindu. What are the values and beliefs important to you? How you mean? What's sort of Values or Practices or Beliefs that are, which are in Hinduism which are important to you because people take bits as they choose the little bits which they refer to follow so what's all this do you think are? Well I, what I believe there is a God, that's all and I believe in that God and Goddess. Yeah. Do you believe in karma? And also in karma and also reincarnation? Yes Practically there were seen any self, any actual experiences that make that more applicable to you? No What happens to you when you die? Well you take another form of life. What about, do you think it important for Hindu to do charity work? Yes, they are doing the moment as well, they do a big amount of charity work, yes. We use to do it from here, we used to send tons and tons of clothes to India wherever, you know disaster came. Do you think that's important just for humanity or do you think it's important spiritually? No, for humanity. Do you think there is any spiritual? Yes. This is another one of this, kind of a random sort of question, have you ever heard of any sort of spiritual experience or religious experience that you kind of? Well, personally not but, sometime I feel like some spiritual things are happening. That sort of thing I have experienced. This is a little section, this is specially on Hindus today. Are you personally more or less religious today than you were may be 20 years ago? I shouldn't say that because in young life father or mother, what they do, children was not doing but after as they grow up and some make you mistake and then you know father and mother say well, you have to learn this things and that's way how our Hindu religion come into our mind, the Hindu religion is there but in young age you know they have to, you know in young age you do what you like, and after a certain age it automatically you start believing, if you are believing you start believing in GOD. And that's a different thing. What makes sort of the youth of today in the U.K. which you say the more or less? Well after, you know spiritual people come to, came from the India and there was, you know big, you know those going on, you know in London and everywhere where the our temple is, so that's where I say that so many youngsters are turning and start believing in this thing. So you don't feel that it is something that's become all in its decreasing, do you think its? No, no, no what I see is at the moment that, you know that Europeans are more interested in our religion and our people try to teach them, that is what I see, you know. Do you think its important for, do you think its important to learn your mother's tongue, your mother tongue? Yes. For youth do you think its practically happening? Yeah, practical. If he believe that he born Hindu he should learn his own language, mother tongue Well, what is the benefit of that? The benefit is that he will never forget that who he is? And do you think that also make it easy to communicate with some of the older members? Yeah, you see sometime if they don't speak their own language they can't, you know tell what to do what not to do. Yeah and what about the caste issue, do you think it's more or less important today? Or do you think it's leaving at all important? Well the caste system, you know its been for generation, you know coming and going like, you know so its not very important thing, no, So do you think there will be almost no evidence of it with in a couple of years? Oh no, no, no, no, that won't go, as long as India, in India is this caste system there will be never leaved. But even in India it seems to be less. We hear a lot of people who say-- Well might be I don't know but, caste system is different you know, I was born as a Tailor; the Brahmin was born as Brahmin, he works less. So this is the caste system, Patel who a businessmen, farmers, farmers so that's how it works. But also then you hear lots of stuff may be somebody who might be a shopkeeper marrying to Brahmin family or vice versa, so I mean do you think it's important really? Oh no, now the next generation is changing I don't know what's going to happen to the next generation, its changing definitely. And how do you define yourself today, because where you are from and the fact that you come from India via Africa would you say, what would be your sort of, what would you call yourself? Would you call your self a British Hindu, or an African British or what would it be or just be a Hindu? The British Asian. British Asian? Because we got USA passport, we have been naturalize, all this thing and if we say well we are Indian it's not right so that's why we are British Asian. So where do you see as home? Where do you see as home? Where do you have strong connection with as a home, do you still have connection with Africa? Or do you feel that if you had a choice where would you call home? Well at the moment I don't say anything because I am part of British so this is my home, but yes for during like holiday or go and see my relative then it's a different thing I go to Africa, I go to India, America anywhere I like. So if, I mean you see a lot of people I talked to said that they would like to go back to Africa because the climate is so nice and you know the greenery and the colour--.? Yeah that's why but its no secure life, in Africa it's a unstable like you know never know what's going to happen tomorrow I like to go but its no. Just this is the final thing, just want to know if you have any final comment or any final thought or anything you like to say as well The final thing, you this, if you just tell me how do you organize this thing home from home, is it from college or is it society or what? Yeah it's, it's actually a set up by with the Oxford Center for Hindu studies In Oxford Yeah, it's. You are from Oxford University or what? That's right yeah. Oh that's good. So where, because we got the Hindu center there we find importance of having like an our kind of Hindus when they came and stuck because this will, you know we have really one chance of this to have our word of so this is what we are trying to set it for. Oh good. It's a good idea. It is. Because in within 30 years you know a lot of people wouldn't be able to, they are passed away, we wouldn't be able to say it and it will be so much so much history lost and in India which has been such a long history of the sort of this Guru-Disciple oral history of like telling stories like the Mahabharata and stuff you know in the past they were all oral and so that's why we are trying to keep together sort of the history you know because just because it's you are out of India there is no reason you shouldn't continue like that. I personally think. It's a good idea. Because I saw the exhibition and I got those three-four forms, I gave my son and everybody will fill the questionnaire form and send it to you. Thank you. But the also benefit is that in the fifth generation it is you know relatives of yours or decedents of yours they can look through in order to see what you personally said but lots of Hindus said when they came here so it is I think it is important to hold on the history because you learn a lot from it. Oh yes. If they keep doing this thing and they want to know what's Hinduism is then they have to do this thing because it's not point me that only one person say well I believe in Hindu but if he doesn't know there is no point so it's a very good idea about visiting not only this temple but if you go around all the temples and tell them that what do you think of And what we are trying to do as well is that we are trying to spread the word that this is the centers for anybody who want to go anybody you know this is not just center for Oxford for you know this is for everybody in place I mean we will. Yeah for everybody, the Hinduism we don't teach if one people come to here we don't tell him that we are going to make you Hindu or anything, if you want you come and learn what we are doing, come and see what we are doing, what we are not doing and bow that way you can learn our Hinduism but we don't tell people to do this or that, no. That's the nice thing about Hindus, is that. Yeah because that's what happening at the moment as a Muslim are said well you have to be a Muslim. And what they are teaching there you should be like that but in our Hinduism there is no limit like, as much as you want to learn, learn. I would just like to thank you for your time.