Moksh, Atma This is the interview for the British Hindu Oral History Project. It's the 19th of April. My name is Surya Bansal. 19th of April sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview Surya Bansal 087 Chabildas Parmar Male Andal, Valsad

Preston U.K. Civil Engineer retired EN Gujarati, Hindi, English First of all we just start with somewhat background information. Where are your parents from? India. Do you know whereabouts? In Gujarat. All right. Do you know what sort of? It's. Village or? Village, it's called Andal, District Valsad and that's right, District Valsad, that's right. And, so where are you from? Where were you born? I am from the same place, Andal. But do you still have sort of family or relatives in that area? No. Not at the moment, nobody there. Okay. And so, did you go to school there as well or did you move? Yes, I went to school from Primary right up to the higher education, which is Secondary school. And after Secondary school I went to the University. And which University you go to? First of all I went to Gujarat University in Navsari, it's called Gharda College and then I moved down, Second Year, I moved down to Baroda to do Diploma in Engineering. So you spent your whole time there and did you? I spent there time up to age of twenty-five. Twenty-five. Okay. What was the schooling like at that time there? I mean what, was it, did you have sort of happy time? Very happy time. And so, just a little like on the community that you, your father's involved in. Yeah. So what temples did you? It's on beginning, entrance of our village. It is called Chandikamata Mandir. And it stayed on one of the 125 feet high hill. That was entrance of our village. And that's the temple I used to go with. Was that a old temple was it? The old temple. Okay. And what about siblings? Do you have any brothers or sisters? I have got a two sister. I am sorry I have got three sister and one brother. And did they stay in India or? That, they were with us, you know, we grew up together, five of us. And, so how old were you when you came to the U.K.? Age of twenty-five. What was the reason for that? Well, I had a nice job there, qualified job. I was a Civil Engineer. Whereabouts? Degree and I started work in Baroda University. Then I applied for the job in Gujarat Electricity Board, I got a job and it's based on Surat sub-station. So I was a supervisor on 66Kv Watt from Surat to Ukai and that time I was in Surat. So one of my cousins who came from England in 1962, he told me that you got a qualification and they change a Law in England, said those who are qualified, there can apply to the British High Commissioner and they can get a job there, you know, you get a voucher there even. So, I said I don't know whether I am going or not because I have got a good job there. But in my family, his family everybody outside, on my family nobody. So my father was thinking that if I go, you know, internally, but he didn't say that you can go but I was thinking about that, if anybody going there, internally he was thinking that. That you should go? I wish you go. So anyway, I decided after that just few a line, wrote to the British High Commissioner in Bombay and they sent me the form and everything and they said, "Will you send me your all original certificates?" So I got my duplicate certificate, send with that application form with all duplicate certificate. They wrote a letter back to, very third day that, "Will you please send your original certificates?" Because I was frightened that if our original certificate all go to England and if I want to apply for the job here, what shall I do? Yeah. So I didn't send. The second time I sent my original certificate and within three days by return post they sent me after the examination, and wrote a forwarding letter that, "Within three months you will get your voucher." I was really pleased about it. But, actually, I was, then I went to work and told my friend about it, and they already applied and they already got a letter from there you know, I didn't know nothing about it. I said do let me know, I have got a British High Commissioner's letter within three months. One says, "I got within 6 months", one say, "I got within nine months, you are lucky, within three months you will get the voucher." So anyway afterwards you know, so even not within three months they sent voucher to my original place, to my father, you know, but my father didn't know the English at all. Next door, my uncle know English, so he took that voucher to my uncle. My uncle said, "Your son's voucher came from England." That's all he said. So my father sent me in that voucher in original envelope and at that time is, I heard about it only, you know, if you lost a voucher somebody can apply for it, you know, and they can go as well, you know, that sort of situation was yeah, everybody want to come here and when my father send me voucher and I saw there, 'Oh my God! I got voucher now and they wrote deadline, but deadline is 21st of January, I have to come here, no, 26th of February I have to come back here. So, I don't know what to do now and I said I don't know, I will leave the voucher in my suitcase. About fortnight, after three weeks my father went to my friend near village, next, and he told my friend that he got a voucher and he didn't answer me anything at all to go to England and my friend wrote me that you know, if you don't want to go, you know, give me that voucher you know, and I'll go. So I said that's important something more. So straight way when I come back from my work, you know, at, my friend's letter, I read that and I went straight to the another town which I know the, what you call, travel agent, went down to give my voucher and said, "I got a voucher here. I want to make a passport and I need a passport to be made within fortnight and that was end of December." And then I got passport and everything, you know, but only thing I need to, 'No Objection certificate' from my boss, where I work. So, next thing, I went down to my boss one night and I said, " I want a 'No Objection certificate' from you because I am going to England." And he was really pleased about it, he said, "Look, I am glad you are going, but only thing I tell you that regarding England, because I have been already there for my training there, you know, it's a dignity of labor there, right which is, you are here in a, this position, you won't get that position there. You have to built your position when you go there. Don't think your job is ready for there, whatever they say it on the voucher already the job is not ready for you. You have to try here. Anyway so he give me the good advice and I said, " Look, only thing, first come first when you go there if you think it is, any job you come first you can accept it." So 26th of January, our Independent Day I flew from there to England. London Heathrow Airport, my cousin already in Leeds, Yorkshire. Yeah. And he got a friend in London, and I told him that I can, he can receive me from the airport. He received me at the airport. I had lunch with him. And then I come, he just took me to the train, and I set on the train at about 2'o'clock, and I was freezing cold, and train was completely full, so I have to set in that passage with my suitcase, on top of the suitcase sit down there, really freezing cold, you know, all way down up to the Leeds. I came to the Leeds, saw my cousin here and then we went down to the house and he has told me that he is going to the work next morning 6'o'clock, up at 6 in the morning, but he's arranged everything, you know, because, another cousin my family about third door away from there and he told me that I told that, "Our relation, he will receive you in the morning, no need to wake up early, you can have a nice bath and everything, so he can come down to collect you." So next morning my cousin went to the work, she came down at 11'o'clock, my cousin's wife, and she said, "will you have a dinner with me, you know, so all right I have come with you." So I had dinner with her. Then she said we had got another family from our district. We go down to see them. And, so we went to see them. And that person who works in the factory called A. G. Graham, and he come to lunch at home, and his relation who came from Tanganyika; he was staying for a week there and he went to look for a job and he said, he came from same time when I was with him, you know, and he said, "Uncle, I got a job already, and I know this two places, two vacant there, you know." So that gentleman went to visit him, so he said, "Look this person already come yesterday." He want a job as well you know. He's not sitting down here. So he, his big coat you know, so I went down with him, that person is a telephone exchange person and called (inaudible) at that time, and he asked me that, "Do you know anything about electrical suppliers?" I have done my Physics in the University, then he just jumped you know, I said, "what is this?" So whatever he showed me I explained to him, "This the wiring and everything." He said, "All right, you got a job start tomorrow morning." The very next day I start morning, which is learning on Sunday and Monday went to visit and Tuesday morning I have to go with that gentleman, who already got a job. We went down, job was in Bradford, from Leeds to Bradford, so we have to change two buses to go down there. So I worked in that telephone exchange for six months and in a meanwhile I was applying for my job, which is Civil Engineering. So by the time I got a job in a construction company, which is a local construction company and I work there for six years. And then I said all right, I got a more knowledge about this, construction company. I think I have to move on. So I jumped another company, which is Handy Piston company, and there I applied, there are advertised that they need a civil engineer in a construction site, they would provide a car and everything, so I applied there and I got a job there. So I worked for about two and a half year there. Then another, Oh yeah! The company slightly slacked at that time so they made redundant. So I applied, I made redundant and then three months without a job, but they done me a favor, the company car they leave it with me for one month to look for a job. So meanwhile I looked for a job and I got a job in Tarmac, Tarmac company. But the only thing, the reason is, I had traveling job. So I based in Stoke-on-Trent, I had a interview in Wolverhampton but it showed me that two places are open for you whether you like Stoke-on-Trent or Camden? So I said Stoke-on-Trent would be better. So I got a job in Stoke-on-Trent. And two and a half year I had done in a railroad and bridges and that's construction side. And after that my cousin, he came from Kampala, and he said that, "this is traveling job, you got a small children, you know, and, why can't you have a steady job?" So he said, "I will look for you business so he got me a shop in Preston. So 1978 I came to Preston. And I here got a shop, shop, you now. He buy me a shop in Preston and since then up to last March I had a shop 19, 2003, I mean 2003 up to you know. And I am retired now. This is my whole story. That's pretty good. I was going to pick up on a couple of things. Yeah. I just want to get, the shop you had for the start what sort shop was that? It's a very spatial grocery shop. That's a grocery independent shop. In between all that you must have got married? Sorry, yes. Yeah I just forgot that part, you know. You know when I got a voucher before that I got married. Married in 1962. That's right, 1962, I married. And that's the time my cousin came, about this thing, you know. And I was in Surat with my family, my wife, you know, then she became pregnant so she has to go to her parents for what do you call - rest, for a baby. So she went to the parents, which is Baroda. Her parents in Baroda. Yeah. Then I get to know after that the boy been born, so I still not confirm that I am going to England right, because their side my wife side they don't want to know we can go, part away you know, so any way. So they preferred that you stay. Pardon They will prefer if you stay. Stay yeah. So I went down after the baby born and broadcast my news look I have got a voucher from England and I want to go. He said no you can't go, you can't leave my daughter here. I said look Papa; I promise you that I can bring her there within a year time. When I go there, I start earn money, within a year, I can bring her just like that. So anyway after all I convinced them and they are agreed and I can go. So that's how I got permission to come here from my parents and their parents. But when I come here, got a job and everything you know, then within a six months I could save the money and '64 January I came and May '65 call my family, wife and son with me. And so what's your son's name? Mahesh. And so you brought them over and so then you quite, you kind of established then? Yeah that's right. Yeah It's good. Just a second. You know when you first came over and because you were so, you kind of out learned and you, much more further North. Was it difficult to get sort of stuff like the food you used to, spices, sort of clothes like sarees, stuff you liked, stuff, clothing for you wife? And was that difficult or was that already shopped? Well, it was a difficult because it's a minor community there that time in '64 to '67. It's only those who came from India nobody from Africa or anywhere else you know. So that was a minor, that's what a minor difficulty because we can't get our own vegetable, which we use to eat there. Yeah. So it's one of the shop in Bradford they got a delivery once a week to the Leeds. He came down with a Van to sold those vegetables once a week. And that sort of thing and all and that time we are mostly living single, most of them living single. Only three or four family there. So most of the food we are relay on the tin stuff which is already pre packed. Yeah. So when you come back home, work you know just open it, easy for single people. And so also, what about any religious events or any stuff like that? How would you practice those in such a small community? Oh yes. We have got a background with, when I came here, that I have got a background is it religious side you know, so we got a temples in Leeds, so once a week we usually go there. Yeah. Did you experience any sort of racism on your first coming to the U.K. or any time since? Race? Racism? Nothing at all. That time there are very-very friendly. Even they saw the Asian people, anybody you know, walking on a road or on in a bus, they start talking, everything. No discrimination, nothing at all. I didn't found anywhere, my, incase of what I am thinking about the lack of conversation is a more discrimination because if some body sit down next to you and you don't conversation with them, you are not coming too close with them. You just apart from them. Yeah. That's why. That's kind of like. They were thinking or you thinking two different thing. But my concern, I know the English and everything if somebody start talking to me, I start talking to them you know, so we come to close together. Yeah. So that way I didn't find anything at all, that time any where. Just a little bit on sort of religious practices. Was your family previously quite religious in, as you said? Not quiet religious, but basically religious, you know. What sort of family tradition have you brought from your parents or also family, do you have like a family Murti and also any family Guru's? Did your, was your, did your father have a family Guru? Family? A Guru? Yeah. Family Guru, yeah. In India? India. Did any of them ever visit your house when you were younger, in younger days? Yes. How about sort of now-a-days in Western, when you had people over like any sort of Guru's or what about when you are practicing at home what sort of like an average day? Do you do a Puja in the morning or what do you normally do? Ourself? Yeah. At home. Yeah in morning. Yeah. We do breakfast in the morning. When I was in a shop you know, I did light snack, which is sandwiches, and nighttime we had a good proper meal, that's right. And then what about in the morning? Would you do any sort of Puja at all? Oh yes, definitely. Before the breakfast. Before breakfast. We do the Puja everyday. Before the breakfast yeah everyday Puja. Okay. Some of these questions now are kind of very general and you have kind of probably might have touched or even answered some of these already but I'll just go through. So what you think actually makes you a Hindu or an Hindu? Because I born an Hindu. What sort of practices do you think define you a Hindu though, that you do or so what's sort of beliefs are important to you as well, as a Hindu? Well, any religion, in a Hindu, I will born as a Hindu, our parents were praying everyday so we follow their procedure like you know, have a Diva in the morning, have a prayer to God in a morning, to keep the whole days activities in a peace of mind. Yeah. Do you believe in Karma and also reincarnation? Karma? Karma, sort of action and reaction, you do something to somebody and got a reaction. I couldn't understand that. If you have to, like Karma as in like if you have to, harm or insult somebody, any sort of. No. Only thing my personal religion. Yeah. Is a Hindu but as a personal I am thinking about, if you don't do harm to anybody, right, he won't do the harm to you. Yeah. As my proper religion without causing any harm he not ask me that you know, that's the sort of thing I believe that in that way. What about reincarnation? It's a friendly. You mean reconnection with them? No reincarnation. We can reborn at the end, sort of at the end of your life if you are not. Well. Reborn again and to leave this state. Well, that's the thing when any Sant come, do that what you call Hindu Lecture, they give Hindu Lecture and everything you know, they said if you do good thing for your life, you have a good life in a next life, next thing. That's what I understand. So if you do bad thing, you suffer a lot. Yeah. So? So that stop you know Hinduism. Yeah. That stop everybody supports to do good things that their life. What about, what do you think the goal is or what happens to you when you die? What you think the goal of life actually is? Well, as. It's kind of difficult one, isn't it? Is it difficult. Well, as a Hindu, in Hindu they said your soul is not die, your body its come, your soul has come out from your body, the soul is still there to reborn in another body. Your body just finished now. Don't know what sort of life we born in other side but the existing body will destroy in a five substance, which is Water, Earth, Air. It is three substance or five substance. Fire, Water, Air, Ether and. Another one, I know the five, mostly. Fire, water, Air, Ether. Is it Earth? That's right, Earth, yeah. That's why the Kant Maha, Panch Maha Bhoot, your body will go in that five symptoms. When you burn body you know, will go in five places. That's all. And the soul which is traveling from different bodies. Different bodies. Are going to different pass time to different exit in their life. According to your, what according to your? Would it be consciousness or moved your in you know, if so, if you are into quite unintelligent type of life and just basically living your life like an animal? Would you? Yes. It depends upons what you done in your life. What, how your life. Present life. Yeah. So what about is there any? Bad thing or good thing. So what about, is there any higher levels there? Because it's one thing traveling from birth, at the birth, what is actual goal? Because you just, you go in, is there any higher goal? What would be the goal? Higher goal is in Moksh, called Moksh, never get born again. If you have done really-really good things, religious wise or social wise or whatever it is, in a present life then somebody will get Moksh. Which is never reborning. Which level because lots of, people say there is lot of different because it's like the people who worship mainly Ram would have some Ram level or who worship Krishna or who worship, so what would be the high, where is the, where do you feel personally is kind of important to you? It not depends upon which God you, which God you pray, Krishna, Rama or Shiva but depends upon how you pray. That's the main thing. It doesn't mean that you know, Rama will take you there and Krishna will take you there. It's just what you concentrate on one thing and the way you pray is the most important. Okay. I don't know whether it a good answer or not. No it's good. Okay. Do you think it's important for Hindus to do charity work not just for like humanity of action for any, do you think there is sort of any spiritual benefit in doing charity work? Spiritual benefit. Yeah. Also just a little bit on sort of Hindus today and your, you today basically? Can I just get my jacket? Yes. I have got my money in that. I will just hold it. Yes. Just you personally, you just said you are more or less religious today. Why? Why is that? Well born like that. But do you think with the age you feel the importance of it more? Age? Age as a part? Yeah. It depends the thing is the new generation, I am thinking about my generation, means my, I had born in a religious place, religious parents. Yeah. So it's all come through me whether I am getting older or not. Yeah. But in between time you have to work, you have got a not, you have got a limited time. Yeah. To worship and everything, I have not worshiped I mean, say go to temple and everything. Yeah. Now after the retirement I have got more time to come to the temple What about sort of the youth of today, the younger generation now? Would you say they are more or less? Well, we got a like this temple we have got a lot of facilities regarding religious, wise activity wise. Yeah. I know. And we brought up our children in that knowledge. But if we, if this temple is not here or anywhere in England you know, our community, parents can't give that much knowledge to their children regarding religious way because parents is busy, they are going in school. Yeah. How much time they got, go together? But this is the thing we got, weekend children in coming to learn our own language plus religious things and lot of activities, which is now here. Yeah. Okay. And do you think it's also important that the children are associating with all the Hindu of the same age? Same. Therefore they kind of on the same level? Same level. Yeah. Sorry. Do you think it's important for, do you think it's important to learn their mother tongue as well, the young generation? It's true. Because through the mother tongue they know more than parents can make them more understanding as well. If the mother tongue they don't know, right? And if I talk in language, mother tongue to them they don't understand much but if they have got a mother tongue what I learn then good convocation. Good conversation. So that's also good relations with the older members as well? That's right. What about the Caste issue now-a-days of the different Caste? Do you think that still applies or is it as relevant? Not in England. Not in England. Not in England. What about in India? Do you think it's been there, do you think it's still as strong? Now it's getting. Less and less? Less. What do you think it's a good thing or a bad thing? It's a good thing. Don't want a Caste system at all Because do you think it's taking the Hindu community up too much? That's right. This is almost the end now pretty much and she just asked it. What is, what would you call yourself now I mean because you are Indian, you are also a Hindu probably but also you are a British citizen so, would you, what would you, what do you call yourself as? As I say this, are you a British Hindu, are you a British Indian, what? British Hindu British Hindu. Yeah. So where do you call or what do you think as home? Where do you see as home? When? Where do you see as home? Where? Where is it? Now? Or what you feel a strong connection to, your roots or do you feel like you are comfortable here, this is your home? Well, we have to say this is my home because our family here. My own family here but originally when you brought up to age of 25. From the beginning about, you still remember that, it won't go away from your mind. And also you have kind of a, quite a affection to that place That's right Okay. And finally, that's pretty much it, I just want to also, if you want to say anything else, any other comments you like to make or any final thoughts just about anything. No, that's all. That's it I think. Yeah. Thank you for your time. Yeah. Thank you very much.