principle of Jainism 27th November, 2003 sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview 093 Ramesh Mehta Male 55 Zanzibar

Leicester U.K. Degree in Medicine En Gujarati, Hindi, English Dr. Mehta, as I mentioned earlier would you please begin this interview by telling us a little bit about your family's history, where your parents and your grandparents are from? My father was born in India, in a town called Pipartora, near Jamnagar and he then came to East Africa, Zanzibar in particular, as a young child. My mother was born in Zanzibar and they got married in Zanzibar. I was born myself in Zanzibar and at age of nine, we went to Kenya and I was brought up in Nairobi, where I had my Primary and Secondary education. In about 1965, after finishing my 'O' Levels, I went to India, where I studied my 'A' Levels as well as did my Degree in Medicine. After serving in India, one-year internship and a six-month post in Surgery, I then migrated to U.K. by which time, my parents had already come from Kenya to U.K. and there they were staying in Leicester. That is how I also happen to come to Leicester in 1974 and have been since that time. Okay. In Leicester. Can I ask you what was your father's profession when you were living in Africa? My father was working in a Theater in the initial part and then having moved to Nairobi, went into business and he changed many different form of businesses and finally we had a shop, where we were selling furniture, etc. And what was life like because this was in Kenya at that time, but what was like, life like in East Africa at that time? The life, initially in Zanzibar, when up to a age of nine, I have only very few memories but a happy memory in Zanzibar. Then, when we moved to Nairobi, where I had my Primary education, where I had many friends and like a teenager, we used to play various games on the street, in playgrounds, etc., and I had a happy upbringing with some flavor of religion being imparted by my mother. And it is from a very young age, that I used to attend the temple or Derasar in Nairobi. But my basic knowledge of religion was a very simple and I knew my prayer of the 'Navkar Mantra'. But that was about all that; religiously I was involved in, with a community, later about age sixteen, is when I went to India. Yeah. What was it like going to India then? I mean, was it vastly different? It was for the, yes, it was difficult in the sense that it was the first time that I was going away from home, going into, though motherland, but to me it was a foreign country at that stage. But I had relations in Bombay, who supported me through the difficult times. Is that where you did your studies in Bombay? I did my studies in Bombay, is where I first initially did my 'A' Levels. I used to live in a hostel, where you know, it was a catering kind of, hostel. So there was no problem about food, etc. And India, being what it is, you could get different cuisines, etc., for eating anyway. And after finishing two-years of my 'A' Levels, is when I joined Medicine. And those were lovely times, in the sense that my aspirations were being fulfilled and that both my family and myself, I wanted to become a doctor right from a young age and so the, my five-years in Medicine were passed very quickly and it was during my Medical career, that I met my wife and we had two or three years of courting as well during. This in Bombay also? In Bombay. All right. She was also doing Medicine and the turning point in my life after I came here, was when really religion was imbibed more in me. And to some extent my parents having also come to Leicester and also the influence of both, my parents and my wife, I think are crucial to the change in me towards religion. My wife is from, actually a Hindu background. She is a Maharashtrian, having born in India, was not versed with the Gujarati language either at that stage. But now speaks fluently Gujarati and is probably a better Jain than myself. Did you go back to Africa before you came to the U.K.? Did you go straight from India? After my qualification I came straight here. But during my education, I did return back to Kenya once. But after qualifying, I came straight here. It was in 1977, just some, two, three years after I came here, that I got involved with the Jain community, when I came up in to their Executive Committee. At that time, Jains used to hire out the Sanatan Mandir, Wesley Hall and various Church Halls. They did not have a specific place to worship. That is right. And we used to hire those Halls whenever we had our festivals like, Lord Mahavir's birthday was being celebrated or we have eight days of our Paryushan festival in August and September. So this was the time that, because we did not have a building, we used to use other halls. Be it a Church or be it a Sanatan Mandir, etc. It was around 1979, that we thought that we must have a building of our own. During this time, prior to us purchasing this building, we were running a Sunday school, again in Community Halls and Housing Association Offices and things like that. How far, how large was the community that time? There were about, at that time about seven hundred, five hundred to seven hundred Jains in Leicester, which has now grown to about thousand Jains, I believe. And it was in 1979, that we thought that we must buy a building of our own and this Church, which was a disused Church, was in a pretty bad state, came up for sale and we put a bid and we were successful in getting the building around, just in sort of, Summer of 1979. And we had our first Paryushan festival of eight days, in this building, where our youths and our girls, all used to come every evening here and we painted this building and got it in shape, so that we could then celebrate our first festivals here. And that was a extremely good spirit within the community. It brought the whole community together. Together and people from work would come straight here and we had the rollers paint, this that and other and everyone used to work and till, and we were providing food, so that you know, obviously people coming from work would be hungry as well. And in that particular way we started. At that stage we never thought that we would have such a beautiful temple, that you have witnessed here today. As time progressed, we obviously started our Sunday school here and we started using this Hall for various activities. And it was in about 1982-83, that we thought that we should now have a temple. In the room that we are sitting here, was our first small idol that we installed there and we started. This room was the room that we use, our first small temple. But those images were not of consecrated images and they were not pantheistic Murtis. It was around this time, that Dr. Natubhai Shah, who was the mastermind behind the temple and the President at that time, foresaw that a beautiful temple could be built here and we got funds from rich Jains in Belgium, Antwerp, who donated large sums of money to our organization. And this was the start of our dream of creating a beautiful Jain temple here, in Leicester. And since then, money started pouring from Jains all over U.K., from East Africa and we were then able to get the first idols; the consecrated idols were brought here in 1985 and the temple was completed in 1988. In fact, in this July, we will be completing our fifteen years since the Prathishtha ceremony. During this time we have progressed, in the sense that, there are more people now involved in religious activity than ever before. Both, from young people to old. Initially, we were doing things ourselves. We now have learned Jains from India, who visit the temple and lecture series are being organized. We have a learned Jain permanently based in Leicester, in our temple so that they can impart knowledge. Besides our Sunday school, we now have classes for adults, where the Scripture, the Jain Scriptures are in, Ardhmagadhi and Prakrit and they are very difficult to understand. And this learned chap, Mr. Jayesh Shah, who has been brought from Ahmedabad teaches to those who want to learn the Scriptures. So we have our class were the scriptures are being learnt. Is that every week or every day or how? This is on every Sunday morning. And on Monday night we have theory classes for adults. On Wednesday evening, we have theory classes for youngsters and then we have our Sunday school. It is our children, who lead most of our festivals. So we see that the festivals are, whether they are dances, any dramas and anything, that is to do with religion, we will get our children to participate. That actually works two folds, in the sense that the parents have to bring their children to the Center and they also get imparted with knowledge when they come and the children also get that love for the Center, love for the religion, yeah. And do you, because that, they are probably at quite young age when they start to get involved, the children, do you feel that as they grow older, they keep that or do they you know, when they become teenagers, there is always that you know, rebellion or something, do you think they still keep it on? Yeah, it is my firm belief that, anything that you impart to the young children, even when they go to University, they may diverse a little bit away from religion or not even away from religion, but get more engrossed in other social activities, etc. It is my firm belief that, once they have the family of their own and when they have the children of their own, they want the same qualities imbibed in their children. And therefore, they have wandered a little, when they go to University, but they do come back. And this is evident because we have had first generation children, who are born here and who are now been in University. My own son, who is now twenty-four was born in Leicester, is now a Medical practitioner, he has participated in many activities here. In fact, he was the first born, when we bought the temple, this particular Church. He has participated in various cultural events within the organization and many television programs. B.B.C. did a 'Believe it or Not' program here, where he was involved in that. Then there was 'Never' on Sunday, again a religious series and there are various other times when broadcasting people and radio stations both locally, have involved our children. Our children also, at the moment now, we have a young girl who is like, a D.J., looking after the one of the radio stations on a voluntary basis you know, the religious programs that are being broadcasted. What else? Do you think that it is important for the younger generation to learn their languages like Gujarati or the family's language do you think it is important? I think, it is absolutely crucial that everyone should learn their mother language. If someone, who can learn mother language very well and then wants to learn other seventeen languages, I have no problem with that. But, if you have the intelligence of learning other languages, then I think that person is intelligent enough to learn their own language. And until the own language is learnt, it is very difficult to understand the Scriptures, the books written in the Vernacular. Translation will never be absolute and therefore the meanings are turned into, the exact meaning is not being conveyed once translation occurs. And most translations don't use wordsmiths, that it is an exact translation, yeah? So if someone writes in Gujarati and asks me to translate, I translate. My translation is not going to be that brilliant because I am not a wordsmith and therefore you know, the essence gets lost when you use translated things. And therefore I mean, I absolutely believe that mother tongue is the first thing that we need to be, see that our children have that. And efforts are being done by most organizations. Say in Leicester, there are various Sunday schools, other schools, Gujarati classes, etc. We have two young girls, who have, I think at the age ten or twelve have done their 'O' Levels in Gujarati. So that speaks for itself. Yeah, absolutely. You spoke a lot about your involvement with the Center here, what actually makes you personally, a Jain? What are your own personal beliefs and your way of living your own personal life? As I said that, in 1977, my knowledge of Jainism was meager. And now, my personal level, I come everyday to the temple. And even prior to this interview, I was here at about eleven and I did my Pooja, touching and anointing the idols with saffron paste, etc. I did my meditation. So this is my daily routine. What do you get out of that daily routine or what? I think it is like, after a day's work you feel tired and exhausted. This is like charging your battery. And the peace and tranquility that is there in this temple. I could be alone in my room at home and you still don't get that tranquility because our mind wanders a lot and within seconds we could be from here to Australia and back and India and back in our thoughts. When you come here you are focused on the idol. Now, the principle of Jainism is very clear, it is a non-violent way of life. Therefore, we are basically Vegetarians. Now, what that makes me to come to the temple is, that my Lord really cannot give me anything, yeah? I am what I am because of my Karmas. If I do good Karmas now, my next life would be a better one. It is of my previous Karma that what I am today. And, so why do I come here? I come here and when I look at my Lord, my Lord says, "you follow the path and you can become exactly like me, nothing less nothing more." And therefore, coming here you meditate; you go back from here into your real world. And if I can practice my non-violent way of life, to see that I don't hurt even the tiniest creature knowingly. If I see that when my, in my day-to-day work, when I am consulting patients, that I bring that little bit extra to see that their pain is lessened. I may go out and out of my way, to maybe help more than beyond my call of duty. And those are the sort of things that make me, I think a better person. Every human being becomes angry, yeah. And I am not spared either. But when I come to the temple, I find that my day becomes a little better one. I am less angry and even if anger is about to happen, you can be watchful and see that you know, you do not throw your anger on someone else. And, so I feel that, I mean that is another helping factor. It also helped me to do more charity work. For example, in the earthquake of India, occurred in Kutch, with another friend of mine, we raised something like, sixty thousand pounds to help people who had their legs and arms amputated, when you know, boulders and stone fell on their legs. And having collected the money, we actually went to Kutch and we stayed there, in forty degrees heat to see. I went myself and a friend of mine and we had camps at different parts of Kutch. And we went from one town to another, where we, the, you know, camps were set. We had a team from Jaipur, who were specialized in making legs, artificial legs and arms. So those guys were brought to Kutch. And the pleasure that I got out, when I saw a small child or a human being sort of, hopping into the tent and in the same evening, a leg was prepared, made and he walks out of the camp walking. It is something that I can't put a price on. The amount of happiness you know, that brought to me. And I felt that this was only possible because of the compassion that my religion has taught me, the 'Karuna' that made me go there, prior to that raise the funds for that. So these are some of the things that. Aspects. Aspect that now you put it in practice. Yeah. I mean, obviously you do the good work to get the good Karmas, so you better yourself for your next life. But what is the ultimate goal then for Jains? I mean. Well, I think for every Jain the ultimate goal is, that we believe our birth could be in animal kingdom, could be in Hell, could be in Heaven or it could be in human form, yeah? It is only in the human form that we believe that we can salvage us ourselves. Right. And achieve a state, where, of Siddha, that you are not to be reborn. And therefore my ultimate aim is that, it is, 'God let this be my last birth, yeah? And I may not be reborn again.' But this is only going to be dictated by what I do. And, the bad Karmas has to come in fruition. So any bad Karmas that I do know will come into fruition. So a birth is definite, yeah? And, the good Karmas that I do now would see that my next birth becomes a better one, yeah? Better than what I am know. So, I am watchful of what I do most of the time. Right. Do you identify with yourself like, how do you actually identify yourself then? Do you call yourself like a, you obviously you are a Jain as your religion, but your ancestors are from India, you were born in Africa, you have lived in the U.K. for so long and your family grew up in the U.K.? So what do you actually, what is your identity now? What would you call yourself? Well, from the religious point of view, yes, I am a Jain and I, if anyone ask me, "what's your religion is?" Then, yes, I am a Jain. But I am a Zanzibari East African Indian U.K. Jain, having traveled so many different places. But to me, my turning point occurred after I came here. My time in India was a University time, yeah? And therefore, you know, you are having many other activities in life, sports, this that and other. And truly, though I was in India, I wasn't exposed too much to religion because you know, you are living in a hostel and studying, yeah, and that it's it. So, it's, my turning point and I was fortunate that because I got involved with community work, I came into, I joined the committee as an ordinary Executive Committee Member and after two years I became the Deputy Secretary and then I went up to become, the Secretary and then I became the Vice President and I had a, two terms of President ship and then I am, at the moment both, in the committee as an ordinary member but also I am one of the Trustee for Trustees of the Center. So I have gone through almost every post in the committee. And therefore, as I got involved, you know, more and more involved with the community work, so by serving my community, I think I have benefited more than the community has benefited. The community feels that they have benefited more but I think the immense change in my own personal life is just tremendous. And this I can't say for every Jain in Leicester, yeah? Because all of them have not been that close to the, in community work, etc. So that is the difference that I feel thankful to Lord for putting me into the committee and rising and never looking back. So that is where that is helped me personally though it has helped the community as well. And where do you see as home now? Where do you see? My home? Yeah. Is still India. Still India? Still India. So, even though it is going back generations? That is right. And specially so, because our Monks and Nuns cannot come overseas. As you know Jain Monks, once they become Monk or Nun you know, they have to give up everything, which they possess. They leave their homes, their family, their wealth and they are out walking from one village to another barefooted. They would be, their next meal would be supplied by the lay Jains, when they go to the next village, yeah. The accommodation would be provided by the lay Jains. They do not use any vehicles. So they can't use a Motorbike, a Motorcycle, Aeroplane, etc. So I am never ever going to have Jain Monks and Nuns come here. And those are our Gurus, yeah. Those are our teachers. And without that religious fervor from the Gurus, yeah, the spiritual progress is never complete. Okay? And therefore at the moment what happens, I you know, we go to India for four weeks holiday. We might see the Guru twice on a couple of occasion and that is it. But if really I want to spiritually improve myself, then really I need to go to India; stay, maybe few months at a time and therefore the roots are still there. So, that is always the center point. Exactly and without our Gurus and our teachers the spiritual completeness cannot take place, yeah? And therefore, what we get exposed here, are only learned people, okay? They are only learned people but they are exactly like me as far as their status within the four-fold religion is concerned, yeah? They are not Gurus. They are only learned, they are learned more but their learning is from books. But you need to have 'that' within you. So therefore, a person, who tells me, "Oh, you should not do violence." Yeah? And I see him also doing violence, cannot impress me. But when my Guru is totally non-violent, yeah? And practicing perfectly. Practicing perfectly and therefore he has got all the right to tell me, yeah? And is setting an example before preaching to me. While most people here who come, are just preachers, yeah? But are they doing that in their own lifestyle? You will find very few. One of our Acharayas, Acharaya Tulsi of the Terapanthi sect, what he has now been doing is; he sends here, people who are called 'Shraman' and 'Shramani'. These are male and female, who are going to eventually take their vow of Monkhood and Nunhood. But prior to their taking their vows, they send those people here, okay? So they can travel before they take the vows. Yeah. They have already started practicing all, which they are going to follow when they go back. Yes. And therefore, I have some respect for these people, yeah? Because you know that they are going to. So our Gurus are thinking that, 'how many guys can come to India and stay here four months with me?' No. How many? Very few. And therefore what he is saying, "okay, I will send people here, who are also of the same quality." Yeah? But, because they have not yet taken the vow of Monkhood and Nun, it is still not the same. It is much-much better, but not the same. And therefore, though that thing is happening now, you know, bit prior to their taking their vows, they come here, stay here three, four months, impart as much knowledge as they can. Once they go back and they take their vows, then they cannot come. Then they send another team. And it is an ever-going process, which has restarted recently. Okay, so did they come like, every year or every few months or, how does it work? It's, which Jain organization invites, yeah? And at the moment, we have one 'Shraman' and 'Shramani', I think in London. Because they have got a building there you know, they stay, their needs are very meager. All they want is food, that is it. I mean they have got two pairs of cloth, stick; some utensil in which they want to beg there, and that is it. They don't want anything expensive for themselves. They impart knowledge; they stay three, four months. During those three, four months different Jain organization bring them up like we had. Okay, so they go around the country? Yeah. So what we will do, because they can't use vehicles, yeah? So like say, they have got, they come to London, if we decide that, okay, in the Christmas three, four days, we want to bring them here and will have a seminar and our children can get some knowledge from them and we adults can also gain. We will call them here, that organization will release them. There is no cost to ask. There will be, someone will have to go and just bring them here. We will give them accommodation somewhere. They stay, then they impart knowledge and they go back. Then if Manchester has got a Jain organization, they want and they will say, "okay, once they have already come half way to Leicester, why can't we pick them up from here to Manchester?" We will say, "fine". We have an Ashram in Birmingham, so we will say, "okay, they are here, would you like to have access to these learned people?" So that is how we propagate. Does anybody from the U.K. ever go to India to become trained as Monks and Nuns or is it generally people in, people born in India who take those vows? No, I mean anyone, for example, if any Jain here or in East Africa, I know of, some Jains in East Africa who, when they decided that, enough is enough in this life and they wanted to take vow of monk, they have gone back and become Monks and then, that is it. I don't think, I know of anyone, in the last twenty-five years, who have come here and have gone back to become a Monk or Nun, yeah? We had a very rich diamond merchant, who came from India, came here just to visit the Jain organizations and on his return, he was going to take the vow of Monkhood. But he was not originally from here. And it is this person, who actually impressed me so much about, why your roots, why you cannot salvage yourself here and why you need to come to India? Yeah? And he was very clear. He says, "whatever you have in U.K. or in your, you could have wealth, you could have this, you have a beautiful temple, you have everything. But this is your aunt. Your mother is still there." Okay, that is the difference. This will always remain your aunt. Your mother is there. And he says, "without that, because your Gurus are there." And he was very clear about what he was saying. And this particular person, I think, it was almost about ten, twelve years now and he is doing tremendous work as having taken the vow of Monkhood. And he is working in India? Yeah? Yeah, on environmental issues. He is one of our leaders in environmental change, to tell people. Because our other principle is 'Aparigrah', meaning 'limiting your acquisition', okay? And therefore, what, even when he was here, he, what he said was, "that each one of you should make a perimeter, yeah? That I want five suits, ten shirts, three pairs of shoes, fifteen ties, okay? You make your own perimeter, however big you want to make, okay? And then you live within that perimeter." And therefore, if I say, I need only fifteen ties, yeah? And on Father's Day my son brings a lovely tie for me as a sixteenth one, what do I do? I still accept that tie, but then I put one tie in the next black bag that comes at my house. Okay. Yeah? Yeah. And therefore, you are living, and then a time comes, when I say, "oh, I really don't need even fifteen ties. How many ties do I wear? So why fifteen?" So, I then now decrease my perimeter. Now, if Aparigrah is followed by most people, I am talking about this, material things, yeah? It could be the same thing, like the number of papers that you use or you just waste and put it in, yeah? We can use the reverse for photocopying and computer work, you know, the blank side, yeah? You can recycle the envelopes; reuse the envelopes yeah. But it is that, oh, it is old. If envelope from Jain Center goes to somewhere, it must be a new one. If that is my thought then I am so wrong. Because the person who receives it, is only interested in receiving that letter; how it comes is immaterial. But it is, I want to show my, that you know, from Jain Center it must go in a white envelope, yeah, and if that is your thoughts, then you are chopping unnecessary trees, this, that and other. So this guy is now doing this work of environmental issues, to tell people, "what are your needs?" I mean, each one of us, if we open our wardrobes, we will find clothes in our wardrobes that we have not worn for three years, two years and I am telling you; you are not going to ever wear those. Yeah? But do you have the heart to give it away? No. But my wife will demand second wardrobe, a third wardrobe. And now the rooms are also less so a bigger house. It is a vicious circle, yeah? Where someone can do with one room now he needs two. Now one room is not enough, so two, larger house and then we slog and work. To get everything, the house. To get all that. And in that process, is where we do our bad Karmas. Right Yeah? Because it is, we are chasing the needs. The needs are never ending it is not ending. Just go after the needs, needs your money, for money you work, when you work and you can't get straight work so you do all unnecessary type of things to get that wealth. So it is a vicious circle. And he is bringing this, very tremendously in nice form to see that people replant trees, this, that and other. So like this Monk, who impressed me, I mean, he just visited Leicester for a day. And he had that effect. And he was able to and he wasn't a Monk then. Yeah. Yeah? He was not a monk. And when he said all that, he wasn't a Monk. He took the vow of Monk, when he went back. So, and now he is not only preaching but he is practicing. So you know, I would like to bow to his, to this guy when I go and see him next time. To see you know, the tremendous, that little change that he has told. So, my personal, my eventual journey is to India. I have already, as a fifty-five year old, for the last three, four years I have committed now myself to part time work. Okay. So you are cutting back. Yeah? So I have started cutting back. And eventually my desire would be to go out there because in the monsoon months you know, the four monsoon months our Acharyas, our Gurus, our Monks don't travel. So say, if you have a bunch of Monks in Bombay, then they will stay there. If you have some in Poone, they will stay there. Now for example, if my favorite Acharya is, say in Bangalore for four months, yeah? I can decide from here that I will go and stay four months in Bangalore. And he won't go anywhere. He is not going to go anywhere and I can have all the knowledge that I want. Next time I want to try someone else, then next, for monsoon next year, I can go and. So is that your plan for future to dedicate more time, yeah, for yourself? Yes, more time certainly. And will your wife go with you or? I don't know. We are all two different individuals. As I said, my good Karmas cannot benefit her and her good Karmas cannot benefit me. Yes. It is an individual person. And the same thing works for the bad Karma. So it is an individual thing. If she says that, "yes, this is probably what I should be doing." Then she would follow or who know before I think about it, she might do it first and. Yeah, she will be gone. And I may follow. But, I mean, it is sort of, you could easily go four months there, stay there and then come back here, okay? As I said my, I have my son, who got married last year. He is here. So eventually you feel that you know, you family is here, my brothers, my sisters are here. But that should not prevent me. Yes. Okay? From going to India and staying four months together there. Not four months, two months, one. Something is better than nothing Absolutely. Yeah? So that is how probably my and I pray that you know, I can do what I set out to do. So far, whatever I have wanted to do, I have been able to do. I don't see any reason why I can't do. Right, okay. And just finally then to round off the interview because this maybe heard for generations to come, is there any final thought or final message that you would like to give to them personally? To whom? To the people, who will be listening to this. Okay. Interview in the future for doing research or anything. But, you can give your own personal message to them. Okay. My personal thought would be and I still believe very firmly, that learning the mother tongue is an absolute necessity. Knowing your Scriptures is an absolute necessity and imbibing knowledge from your Gurus is also a must. And I think, if in this lifetime, I can achieve all that then I think my journey from this birth to the next one is probably going to be a better one. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.