Swaminarayan religion, Spiritual Experience, Reincarnation This is a interview for the British Hindu Oral history protect. It's a in the 18th of April. My name is Surya Bansal. 18th of April sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview Surya Bansal 106 Jyotika Patel Female 58 1946 Theca, Kenya

London U.K. GCSC, nursing EN Gujarati, Hindi, English First of all we are just going to go through some background stuff then. Could you tell me where your parents are from? My parents are from India, but they settled in East Africa in Kenya in a early in 1940's, so I was born in Kenya and-- Yeah. And then I came to this country in 1968. I did my studies my nursing in Kenya. Yeah. Okay, so where would they you know what sort of area or village they were from in India? In India, in Gujarat, Pij. Yeah. And then you said that they moved in, do you know what, when round about they moved? I think 1940's. 1940's. Yes. Where you born then? I was born 1946 in Kenya. Oh so you actually born in Kenya. Kenya. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So, do you still have relatives in India? Yes I have got my sister in-law and brother, cousin brother in Kenya in Nairobi. In Nairobi and how about in India. Do you have any relatives in contact with? Yes I have got, I have got my aunt and my sister in-laws in India in Gujarat. Have you been back to either place? No I have been to, I have been to India but I haven't back to Kenya. Have you not? No. Do you go back to the village that you. Yes. Just when you are growing up I mean in Kenya, sort of any sort of childhood memories from school. What school do you go to? Also. We had a English medium school, you know comprehensive. Yeah. Yes. And I did my education till GCSC. Yeah, in Kenya. In Kenya and then I went to Nairobi and did my nursing in the Kenyata Hospital and then I was working there and then I came here. And you were working in Kenya. In the Hospital. What Hospital were? Kenyata Hospital. And how older were you then? I must be twenty-one. Twenty-one. Twenty-one yeah. So sort of would you socializing in Kenya then as well. Yes. So let me, where do you live? In Nairobi. You are living in Nairobi. I was born in Theca, There is a town not very far from Nairobi and I was born there in Theca. Little town. So what about like religious events in sort of best of area? Yes, we used to go to temple you know, we used to pray up, we used to believe in a Lord Krishna then and you know we would go to temple regularly and we do all the, attend all the festivals and every thing. So and you, did you, was that a big temple up there? It was in Theca where I was born. Yeah. Yeah not very big. It was a small temple. But it was very active you know. We used to. What about the sort of the socially you know area that time? Did you sort of socialize with mainly the Hindu community or was there? Did you? You know mainly Gujarati community. Lot, lots of Gujarati in the town you know where mainly Gujarati. And what about your work, how do you do was then make-work wise, how do you do? When I started working in a hospital you know where we had lots of black nurses, you know African nurses, so we used to work with them. Were you okay to work with them? Mostly the sisters would be the, you know they were English from here all the tutors. And yes they were or alright. Yes you know. And you came what year did you say you came to England? 1968 I came during the exodus, yes. And were you married at that point? No. And so was it political reason basically you had to leave? Yes. That's right yeah. Can you remember your journey over I mean -- No You fly. I think we flew from Kenya. I think we stopped in Berlin and it was very frightening because they had taken our passports away and you know there was a rumor that they won't give us our passports back and we won't be able to land in England. Who took them sorry? Who took your passports? I think on the aeroplane I think they took the, I could not quite sure. It's a long time but it was all right you know. We finally landed here and my brother and my father by the, my brother was already here. Because he had come to do study law so. In London. Yes. He came in about 1960. So he was here all ready here in London and then my father came in about 1964. So he was here so they came to you know pick me up from the airport and I was staying with them you know West Kensington. So what's your first thought then? And then. You don't want me ask it, what did you think about? Oh! I loved it. Is it. Yes. What month did you come in? Oh! I don't remember the month now. Was it Cold? It was cold. Yes oh! It was, I think it was winter. It was it? Yes. So when you first got here then? I was all right because my brother was here and my father was here so I wasn't you know in all a completely strange environment you know, there was somebody there, so then the in 1970 I got married and then my mother came, my younger sisters came you know all my relatives came one by one. They were still over there? They were in Kenya but then one by one everybody came you know so. And do you find any sort of difficulties when you first came? No, no difficulties at all no. But did you, where did you start working again? I started working in a Hospital. Actually my first job was I have started working in a launderette because I had to wait for my registration. Yeah. As a State Register Nurse in this country. So I was working in a launderette and I thought that was really hard work. Yeah. And then. And then once I got registered in this country I was working in a, I got married so I moved into South London. And I was working in a Saint James Hospital in South London. So, was a, how did you meet your husband, was arranged marriage? Arranged marriage yes. My sister's friend introduced us and then we got married. And where was he from? Yeah he was from Kenya and apparently he had also come in the exodus you know same time. Really? Same time. Yeah, we didn't know. Is he, and he was already here then, I mean he was already working then, was he established then? Yes. He was yeah. He was also you know, he was I think he didn't tell any body here so he was living in one room with his friends you know. They would all try to cook themselves and you know. Yeah. It was hard for them try to look at a job and. And what you know when you were working a was it, did you find it different from when you are in Kenya? I mean sort of life. No. It was a, it was lovely I didn't have any difficulty because I think may be because you know I was able to speak English, so I was able to communicate with people and didn't have any difficulty. I didn't find any difference. So socializing, who do you socialize with when you were here then? I, You know I had my father and my mom, my brother and then this religion my father used to go there was a, they used to do a little gathering in somebody's house indoor and so on weekends I would go with my father sometimes with him you know. Or some weekends I would go out with my brother you know, we would watch a movie or something and then you know as I said my sis, my older sister and they are started coming you know. So I was able to during the weekday I was working but weekends I was able to go and visit my sister and in East London they used to have theatre you know, they would show three Indian movies every weekends so you know that was something really good because there was nothing else here you know, no entertainment for us. So sometimes we would go and watch three movies at a time you know spend whole Sunday in the theatre. So when you came here food and lots of spices and stuff like that. Was there, I mean were there any shops? Just about there was just one shop where we use to live in West Kensington you know there was an Indian shop and we had used to get everything from there but otherwise we would just buy some tomato soup and put our spices into it make it like daal you know. And then you know like cauliflower and cabbage and we used to make vegetables from there. And what about clothes, sarees and get traditional clothes. Oh yeah there was shops there you know in North London quite a few shops so I was able to go and buy them from there. Did your family experience any sort of racism or do you personally working --? I think it was there you know because there were lots of people coming from east Africa you know. And people who would call you, you know like Pakis and things like that yeah. And so what about are you work? Even, work wasn't bad but I think sometimes if you we shopping and you know on the train and I think you find that yeah. So that making more want to stick just with sort of a Hindu community more. Do you think it made Hindu community more tight or was it already like that because of Africa? I think we were used to being you know sort of in our own, staying with our own community. So I think we stayed like that. When you came to U.K. as you said you went to a temple which was that temple? Yes. That was just the roots of this temple you know, it was just somebody's house. There were not many people here and there were just very few devotees and they were doing it in somebody's house you know, weekly gathering and my dad would make you know Prasad for the Lord you know, weekly offering you know food he would make it and you see maybe about five-ten people were gathering then you know. Then they build a little bit bought a Church in Islington and then this mission was moved there, yeah. How about like traditionally from your family have you brought any traditional sort of religious practices with you in regards to like also in at home like a Altar and you know would you practice it in the morning or stuff? Oh yes, I never used to do you know, we just used to go to temple back in -- So you didn't do Puja at home? In Kenya but in our since I joined this religion because you know when I came here you know there was nothing else. My father used to come here so I joined as well you know and then I started doing prayers in the morning which I never use to do before you know. How did your father find out about Swaminarayan? Or how did he first get involved? I think he found some friend, he went to, he was visiting one of his old friend and I think from there he found out you know and I think in the beginning he was just going to you know socialize to find company because there was you know there was nobody around his age and so he found it. Yeah. And that was when he was here. That was good yes. What year did he come? I think he came in about 1964. That's a quite early on. Early, yeah. So for him it was a Sunday outing, meeting people of his own age you know yeah. When for you did you get married in? 1970. 1970. And did, where did you move to then? Then we move to West London Greenford from South London because when I got married we were living in South London and then we moved to West London. We bought a house. Bought a house there. We bought a house there and then I had a little boy. But it was very difficult time minding you know. It was very difficult to find somebody because I was working. It was very difficult to find and one day there was a Indian, Pakistani lady and she was looking after my son and she would drop him to school so in the morning I used to knock the door and I said you know my son is here, I am going to work. Because I had to get to work in time and one day I left him outside you know and then when I came back in the evening to pick him up one of the English lady opposite the house of the child minders, she told me she goes, you know when you leave your child in the morning, do you know what he is doing he is running on the road because the Pakistani lady she hadn't open the door you know. She probably sleeping you know. When I dropped him and then my husband told, I told my husband and he said you know we going to buy a shop. So then we bought a shop. We you know we rented a house we moved to North London. And we bought a shop so when the boys came home you know we were there. And I was able to drop them to school, pick them up. Yeah, so you worked on the shop that you. And then I stopped nursing and I started working in the shop and we run the shop for twenty-one years. But by then my husband was diabetic so he had to you know blood pressure kidney problem and by that time I had two boys you know they were, one was twenty and other was twenty-seven. So we decided you know so the boys said you know we sell the shop and we came back to our house in West London. So we are there now. Back there. And you retired now? Yes so I, I just donated my kidney to my husband, he was on dialysis because his kidneys had gone. So this year just before Christmas you know I gave him one of my kidney. All right. So he has got a bit of eye problem so I look after him you know but weekdays weekends we come to Mandir you know. It's really nice to be here. We you know we get everything here we meet, we get peace of mind, we meet all the people, socialize. All my sisters and everybody come here so we just used to visiting every each of others houses we you know every Saturday and Sunday we meet here. Yeah. So. And so have you any time had you have you got like a family Guru? Yes Pramukh Swami Maharaja is our Guru. At any time do you have any sort of Gurus or Swamis who used to visit your home? Yes he came when we had the shop you know he visited. Yes he visited our shop and my husband he wouldn't believe in it but when he met Swamijis, you know Swami told him, he said I know you. So may be he meant he knows him from his past life and I think that struck him you know and then my husband became devotee and then that was easier for me. Because we have very you know restrictions in this religion. You don't eat meat, eggs, fish. So before we used to have rows you know he would eat, he want to eat and I didn't want to make you know. But then it was easier because we both joined and now my children are you know they also come to this Mandir. Saturday night they are here. They do security you know then all they have get together with their friends, they make food what they like, they play in the Gym. So instead of going out in discos and bars you know they are here and I know that they won't be following into bad companies or into get into drugs or anything you know. So they have all their friends here and they love it you know all the Saints are young you know same age so they can communicate. Good company. Good company, yes. So what makes you a Hindu? Or what makes you? A Hindu? It's quite broad. I think. What makes you a member of Swaminarayan? What sort of principles? Because you touched on that a little bit then. Yeah. We have been praying you know before this I met we have been praying to all the different, so many different Gods you know. But when I came to this join this religion you know I found it was something real and whatever I was doing I was getting the fruit of it straightaway. Whatever you know I was doing my prayers my penance so whatever I doing, I could feel the happiness you know in my heart and the peace. And my life has changed you know like before I would get up and straightaway eat, brush my teeth and have my breakfast but now I don't you know. Because I have to get up and have my bath you know do my prayers first only then I can drink water and anything you know, yes, and you know like no addictions, nothing so. So you have this well intoxication, no intoxication and meat eating. And. We don't eat no meat you know, no eggs, no fish. So you feel so pure and clean you know. Clean headed that's what you telling. Clean headed, yes. No onions, no garlic. And would you say that there are sort of beliefs that are important to you then? Oh! Very important. Because my you know our Guru says that if you don't have religion in your life what if, even though you have tons and millions of wealth and everything you know you never find peace you know deep inside you find emptiness. You know you don't feel, you haven't done enough my haven't done in my life what I have come to do on this earth, because we didn't just come to you know have grown up and make money and you know have children and just go you know die you know that's not the end of it. It's something concrete I found here in this religion you know, God realization. Yeah. And do you believe in Re-incarnation? Yes. And what about Karma? What is Karma? I am not very. Sort of basically if you had to, the reaction or. Oh! Yes. The bad if you do something bad-- If the bad yes that's right. You know the consequences. If you do bad you have to you know you have to pay for it. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And so you also believe in Re-incarnation. Yes. This is a kind of funny question but what do you believe happens to you when you die? I, once you join this religion you go to Gods' aboard you know you don't come back. Because during the course of your, you know in this religion you do you come to an understanding that everything in this world is you know one day is everything is going to be destroyed. And nothing is stable only God is stable. And if you join God you know your mind concentrate your mind on God he will be there all the time. But your one your children your husband one day they are going to leave you and gone away. Nothing is going to stay here forever you know but God is there all the time. So you know you don't leave desire for anything you know during your lifetime you cultivate that sort of understanding so when you die if you don't have any desires you go to God you know God's aboard. But if you have desires then you come back you know because you come back to fulfill the desire. So by listening to Santos you know discourses and everything are I want to establish that sort of understanding you know and the only happiness lies in praying to God you know nothing else. And that happiness can't be compared to anything else. You know that happiness you experience within. And we have lots of example you know our Guru Pramukh Swami, when you die he comes, he comes for you, you know. He will be there, nobody comes with you but he will be there when you are dying he will be there waiting to take you away to his aboard. And how has he become your Guru? In what context does he become your Guru that you got initiated? Or. Yes we have you know we have to take water in our hand and the lady says holy verses and that you know like what you have done in the past you know then all your deeds are burnt away. All your bad deeds you know or sins are burnt away like you know when you do confessions all your sins are burnt away and then when you take we wear this you know this one? We have a wooden one but I have got it in gold now. For what, what sort of what. Its beads, its wooden beads and gold. What sort of beads are they, what sort of wood is it, do you know? No, not really I think Sandal wood, Sandal wood. So and then when you wear this and then you take a wow you know that from today I will not drink wine, don't drink meat. You know don't commit adultery and all those you know five we have to take five wows you know. Yeah. And. And yes then from then on you then you join this religion. And how does choose who will be initiated or do you put yourself forward? No, no you can, you can come you know anybody is even you can join. Anybody is allowed yes. Whoever they come and listen and they feel you know. The other thing is you know Lord Ram, Lord Krishna, they were there in their time but at the moment it is Lord Swaminarayan and his present through our Guru Pramukh Swami Maharaja you know. So he is always a Live Guru. Live Guru. That's right you know. This is little bit of a strange question but have you ever had sort of religious or spiritual sort of experience at all? Yes one day I was we had the shop and my son was sleeping on the cot and he had kicked the bottom of the cot you know so there was nothing to support him and it we a had an off license in the shop so the counter was bit higher you know than this one and I was busy in the shop and he fell you know he fell on the floor and there was metal shelving and everything but it seemed when he fell he didn't cry and as if somebody had just picked him up and put him up on there you know I think that was. It's good. Do you think it's important for you and for the Hindus to do charity work, to do charitable work? I think yes Hinduism teaches you know that happiness lies in if you help others. That's what our Guru says you know Pramukh Swami that enjoy your furthers lies your own. So I think the one of the aim of human life is should be to help others. So when you help others you know you get that inner satisfaction you know that you have done something, and not big selfish. Yeah. What about Hindus today? Would first of all like you personally do you think you are more or less religious? Or do you practice? I think I am more religious before when I came to this Country I was eating meat. I didn't know you know I didn't know my way but this religion has showed me you know what I am really, I should do in my life you know the right path they have shown me the right path. I think lots of youngsters are a strayed you know they what to do? Where to go? And then they just fall into you know drink and drugs and. And what about the youth today? Would you say they are more or less religious? Well those the youths who are here you know in this mission I think they are very religious they are very happy you know. They would do anything for it you know. Very happy very contented. But those who are outside I feel very sorry for them you know. I mean sometimes they don't even respect their parents you know, they put them in the old peoples home and things like that. Yeah. Do you thing it's sort of fundamental part of it is all that respect that is passed through the family? As a Hindu do you think that that it's important then? Yes, very important. Do you think it's also important for the youth to also learn their mother tongue? Oh!! Yes very much. Because you know our religious books and everything if you don't know your religion you don't get the essence you know if when it's translated it's not the same you know the if you want to enjoy the real meaning and the essence of it you know you must know your mother tongue. And so what sort of languages were the books translated into? Mostly ours are in Gujarati. Gujarati yeah. And that's also translated in English, isn't that? English yes. And do you think that because if the youth are not learning their mother tongue they also lose connection with the older members of their family? Oh!! Very much yes. I think that's the main problem you know. I think they should have here in the school they should have your able to learn your mother tongue you know. Like if you start from the beginning like I did when I was in Kenya. I did it as part of my curriculum you know, so it was easier for me. But my children found it difficult there to go to special Gujarati classes you know. And my older son he can't, they can't express them selves so well as I can in Gujarati you know. My younger one he used to come more to the Gujarati classes in Mandir. So he is able to read and speak more fluently you know. But I think that's really a major problem you know. Because some times even the youngsters come to Mandir you know because these facilities were not available you know long time ago. There was no body to teach them Gujarati although. So I think that's what happened to my older son so. So if he would come to Mandir he wouldn't sit for long because he wouldn't understand what the Santos are saying you know, what they are saying. So he would just come and go upstair and do Darshan and may be sit for a little while and go away. He is not able to get into it deeply like as my younger son. And because there was eight years difference and when he was born and there was the Mandir was there and all the facilities so I can see the difference between two of them you know. He is in Germany now my younger son but. Does he work out there? He works there yeah, but he still follows the religion strictly you know very strict there. Because there you know it's very difficult but he makes sure he cooks food himself he offers to God and then eat. Not go out side and eat in the restaurants and there on Sundays there is only a few devotees there so they get together and you know do prayers and things like that. Yeah. Do you have any grand children? Yes I have got two. One five-year grandson, and two year grand daughter. And do they, do they speak Gujarati? No, English because my daughter-in-law she is Punjabi. She is not Gujarati. She is Punjabi, yeah. So I have to speak with her in English at home you know. So the children are picking up English. But when they will be six years old we have a school in Mandir. So they will be able to come there you know and so they will be able to learn. Because they do lessons in Gujarati. Gujarati yes. I see. I was going to ask you if this is applicable any more but the issue of like caste in India and also today do you think that it is important? What do you mean? The caste system like we have the caste system in this country. It's kind of doesn't really apply any more. But may be hundred years ago Victorians had that, they called out that you couldn't marry, somebody else in the caste system and it was the same caste system in India. So do you think it's applicable any more, do you think it's important? I think to get married you know I think you should be in the same caste. Yes. But you must respect all castes you know. You can socialize with them but when it comes to question of marriage I think it's better to get married into your own caste you know. Do you think, do you think it's that important now because of it's kind of falling out of popularity? It's not very popular subject even isn't any more? Do you think that a time will come when it won't be around any more really? I think so. It won't be an issue anymore? I think so, no. I mean I think lots of people are getting married in to different castes these days even in this country. I think that time will come. And also do you think that will be the case in India as well? I think so yes. I have not got long. Sorry, I will just be quick. My husband will be waiting outside so. Oh! We have got two left, two questions left. Okay. How would you sort of define yourself, are you, would you say that you are a British Hindu, would you say you are a Hindu, would you say that you are an Indian Hindu, a Hindu from East Africa? Or what would be, your definition be about yourself? So like where are you from basically? I think British Hindu. Where do you see as home you know? Here. Because you got accommodation also and yeah. Yes. Also one final thing, so I know you are in a hurry about just two little things. One is any final question and any final sort of comments do you like to make because for anybody who might be reading or listening to this in the future? It's a hard one to say I know? Hard one. Don't know what to say because said it all. I think you have. Yeah. Just like to thank you. Yeah, all right. Thank you very much. Okay.