Lord Swaminarayan, Karma, Reincarnation This is the interview for the British Hindu Oral History Project. It is the 18th of April. My name is Surya Bansal. 18th of April sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview Surya Bansal 109 Lata Patel Female 51 1953 Mombasa, Kenya

U.K. "O" Levels, O&D Business Studies, B2 finalist Shop EN Gujarati, Hindi, English First of all Lata we are just going to go through some background information. Could you tell me where are your parents are from? My parents, both mother and father, they both from India from little different villages. My father's from Kharakhti, which you probably haven't heard and mother's from Latipura. And they moved in to Kenya in 1950 I think, '49-'50. And obviously you were born in Kenya. I was born in Kenya in '53. And whereabouts? Mombasa. Have you still got family actually in India that you keep in contact with or no. Yes. My father and mother's side family was very small. My father only had one brother and one sister and mother had one brother and one sister. Of which now, mother's side is only one brother who also died. Although his children are there, the grandchildren. And same with the sister's side and my father's side, his sister and brother both died. My father died as well and the only people remaining on my father's side is his brother's children and grand children and same with the sister's, children and grand children. Have you been back at all? Where to Kenya or India? Oh, to India firstly. To India, I only went in 1983 first time. '83 first time. Did you see any? I met my husband and got married. Did you, okay. Hold that for okay, get back to that. Yeah I did see my relatives. You did see your relatives? Yeah. That time my uncle and aunt were alive in '83. My second trip was four years ago. And what was your father's name? My father's name is Motibhai S. Patel. And your mother's? Kashiben Motibhai Patel. You were born in Kenya. What school did you go to? It was Central Girls School, the Primary School and the Senior was called Coast Girls High School. I did "O" Levels in those days, it was "O" Levels. Yeah. Up to 1970 and then I came to this country in 1971 September. And do you have any also siblings, brothers-sisters? Yeah. I have got two brothers and one sister. And they would go to school with you as well? Yeah. Both the brothers are older. They went to school there and so did my younger sister. We all went to school in Kenya, Mombasa. And it was a Girls School? Mine was Girls School, yeah. And was it? And the brothers were Boys School only. Boys School. No never a mixed school. And what sort of school was it, was that? Just an ordinary school. It wasn't private. And it wasn't a Church of England or? No. And. In those days we didn't have that sort of things up there. Didn't have. Okay and was there many Hindus in that school? Yeah in fact 95% was all Hindus I would say. And was then, the Kenyan? Yeah, the Kenyan's were there. And was there any English there? No. Okay and so you finished your "A", "O" Levels, isn't it? I finished my "O" Levels there. And I came here in '71. You came here in '71. Why did you come here? Well, we had British passport and my father and mother were still there in Kenya. I came here to do further studies actually. And I came, started doing O&D Business Studies. I did that for two years then I went to work for a year and I could see that with my O&D Diploma I could do Chartered Accountancy. So afterwards I did a one year Conversion Course and then I went to do Articles and did Chartered. I didn't pass my final exam. I was a B2 finalist. And so you stayed here and? Yeah. Your family was still? The family was only there for two years. They all came in '73. Oh they came in '73. Because when I was staying here after two years I had to go back and the things, politically they were going, getting really bad. Idi Amin? Yeah. So my father said, because we all had British passport, he thought that it was better that he came here. At that time when you left I mean, I know that towards the end they couldn't even take any assets all there belonging out of the other country. That was more in Uganda. Oh was it was more in Uganda. So. Yeah. Kenya I think we didn't have much of that problem but we didn't really have that much money anyway because my father on his own, he was only working. And he had four children to bring up so he really didn't have that much money over there. So we, that wasn't our problem, but it was the problem with my in-laws yes. Yeah. So when, who did you stay with when you first came? My brother was here before me and he was just staying in a, as a Bed-sitter that sort of thing. Yeah. And he studied also over here? Does he study? He was in Chartered Accountancy. He was already. Himself. Fully qualified. Yeah. No he was doing Articles when I came. Was he? Yeah. So you were staying with him and then your family came over? And then, I only stayed with him, with a family for four months and then we rented for six months and then in '73 July we bought a house. And then we called our parents. So '72 we bought the house and '73 March our parents came over. Was there a, can you talk about the journey over basically, did you fly the first time? Yeah that was the first time actually. First time flying? First time flying in '71, yes. When you got to U.K. was it like was it winter? It was, no, it was September so it was just the beginning of autumn. But I thought it was quite warm. Okay. And difficulties for you when you first came, also your family when they came over, did you find many difficulties? Well not particularly, but obviously my mother couldn't speak English so she stayed at home. My father used to work back in Kenya, like a pharmacy, under a doctor, but not qualified pharmacist. I forget the word he call it, but he was just working a doctor, giving the poor Africans the medicine and all that. Yeah. So he was like called a doctor though he wasn't one. When he came here obviously he couldn't do, act as a pharmacist. Because you have to have the qualification for that so he couldn't do that. So he was unemployed for a few months. Eventually then he had to find jobs like in a factory and warehouses. Yeah. Which he did. Okay and so you settled where in London? In London we settled in Supree Hill. Yeah. We bought a house. Okay. It was not far from here. Yeah. It's about 5 miles. 5 miles. Okay yeah. And you started, you. I was still at college and then I did one year work and then I did Conversion Course for Chartered. Then I did start work and did my Articles. Yeah. And where did you work? I worked with different firms. Like, more like freelance was it? No. You have to do Articles for four years. All right. I did Articles with a firm then from there on I moved to Stoy Hayward and from Stoy Hayward which is quite fairly big firm. Yeah. And then moved to a firm called John Cumin, which is made up of Indian partners basically. And what about like socializing? Did you socialize? Well we. In your own community or? Yeah. The only main thing was like we attended weddings though I wasn't very keen on it. That's when we meet people and friends but the main socializing is the temple itself. Because we come here, we do voluntary work and we meet friends and relatives here so. And if we ever needed occasionally we went to a relative's house but that was minimum. It was like Monday to Friday working and Saturday-Sunday is the temple. But whilst I was studying I couldn't do much social work any way. Yeah. And what temple was it you used to go to? This one. But obviously it was at Islington before. The Islington one before. And then I moved to the other side of Euston. Did you find any difficulties with sort of lifestyle wise, you know be here, like in terms of foods, clothes? Or was it quite well established when you came here sort of Hindu community? Hindu community was quite established we could get all our food and everything to eat so that wasn't much of a problem. I think people who came in '60s they had problem. But I think people like us who came in '70s we didn't have that much problem because the way Indian grocery shops were we could go and buy it. And clothing wise you know things obviously in winter it's diff, when we wear this you are cold. But it wasn't that, or otherwise we wear the Chudidar. I guess the Saree is meant for a much hotter climate, is that? Did you like experience sort of any racism in work or in any sort of regard when you came here? No not much, no. I can't think of any specific occasion that I was ruled out or anything, no. And so when did you get married you said I am? I got married in 1983 December and then, but that was in India. In fact Pramukh Swami chose my husband and. All right. And asked me to get married to him. Yes. And he was in India. He was in India, yes. So what's his name? Arun Patel. Arun Patel. And where did he come from in India you said? Originally he was from Gulu, Uganda. His family was there and they were obviously, the family was, had to come here in 1972. Yeah. And they were all thrown out of Uganda. Yeah. But my husband was a Saint, like all these Saints up here. Yeah. He was in the Saint, 1970's and then for some circumstances in about early '83 he came out of being a Saint and he was still in Bombay and then I met him for, I went to celebrate Bapa's Birthday, Pramukh Swami's Birthday and there I was told to see him and he was told to see me, if we liked each other, to go ahead. It wasn't with the intention that I had gone. And so then what made you decide to come, I mean, to move over here? Do you think because all your family were here? Yeah. That was in '72-'73 And he didn't mind that? No. He was okay. Because that would be daunting for him to move over here. No because the whole family was here then no point going back to Kenya. But my husband's two brothers are there. I haven't been there yet. His two brothers have settled in, one in Mombasa and one in Nairobi. But politically it's not worth going back. No. Did you think, did he find a bit daunting coming to U.K.? Well the life is totally different from India to over here. Could he speak English? Yes he could. Yeah. Because he was educated up to "O" Level so. Oh okay. Just a little bit, just can we go on to religious practices for you, just first of all your religion practices on your family side basically. We both have the same religion. So you both follow the same? Yeah. So. So it wasn't a problem. That was another reason why I was not getting married was I couldn't find somebody. Yeah. Who was highly religious because I had, I was quite strict in my own ways like. And you? Like we don't eat onions, garlic, meat, eggs, fish, nothing. Yeah. And he was also practicing that but also did you, were you all practicing that from a young age or is that something what you call? Well we weren't. When you came here? Quite practicing from the young age. My mother had this religion of Swaminarayan from her parent's side but when she got married to my dad they didn't, they weren't into this religion. It was a bit hard for her but she then adopted his but when Yogi Bapa predecessor of Pramukh Swami. Yeah. And he came to Kenya in 1970, they say that anybody who's had a Yogi Bapa's 'tabu', which is a pet, the person changes slowly. Yeah. And the religion is second. And so in 1970-71 then my father slowly started converting to this religion but before that my brother who was here in '67-'68 he was going to this temple, Swaminarayan temple in Mombasa. But it was a bit further away from our home so we couldn't like walk to it but he used to go on his bicycle. But we weren't at that time into it. But when Yogi Bapa came, we went to his darshan and that's when, I think slowly we all got attracted and which was nice because my mother was already into this religion, but she couldn't carry on. But we still were, another religion, but we were highly religious that in our house we never had eggs or meat or anything like that. We did eat onions and garlic but then once we came into this religion we stopped it. Yeah. And so you were kind of following that anyway but. Yes. Also your husband was. Yeah. Because he was already a. Yeah. He's already a saint. Yes. That's right. My, in fact, my father-in-law, actually the little village Gulu, he actually built a temple and made everybody into that religion. That was my father-in-law, yeah. So very proud of it. In fact all the Thal, the food at the New Year everything went from my mother-in-law's house. Yeah. So they were all in it. What village was that? Gulu, in Uganda. And in fact, husband's family is very big you know, eight brothers and four sisters. Of which one brother is already a Saint in India. His name is Nandkishore Swami. In fact he is one of the Saints in a very big temple in India, Tithal, which is on the coast. It's a very nice temple and he looks after that temple, well he was involved in building that temple. So we still got one Saint in our family. So your Guru is? Pramukh Swami. Pramukh Swami yeah. Okay. So did they ever visit your house then? Obviously they did? Actually Pramukh Swami, when he came in '70s because he used to come quite often in '70s and '80s. In '70s he had come twice to our house and he, in fact he even had lunch one day. At that time I was working and it was very naughty of me because I wasn't that much into religion because of my studies. I didn't stay at home when he came. I regret for it a bit now. But yes he came with the Santos and had lunch and stayed for some time at the house. He came twice. Twice. Okay. What sort of part, what role do you sort of play and also your husband now in regards to the congregational here? Here? Yeah. The temple? While because I was doing, I was studying Chartered, one of our ladies called Prafulaben, she died couple of years ago. She was like sort of the Head of the Ladies section and she always sort of admired me and she made me slowly get into, more into the Satsang. So in '80 she made me do the religion exams, start me off with the exam and then she started slowing giving me some Seva's to do and she involved me in the cashier job of Donation Collection and I have been doing it since twenty odd years now. So you played like a part in the. Yeah. So I am now. Volunteer hours. Volunteer hours. Mainly it's only on the weekend or any other occasions. But like now I am this sort of Head of the cashier's on the Women side. Okay. And this is kind of, these some of these questions are bit type, they are very general because therefore we ask lots of different Hindus. Yeah. These types of question but, what sort of makes you a Hindu? Like I said, it's by birth isn't it. By birth we are Hindu so, since I think if you know about Swaminarayan religion, I am so grateful to God that I am in this religion and no others. Specially Swaminarayan religion has got so many different Sectors and I am so grateful that I am with Pramukh Swami and not with any of the other Saints because their belief and though it's Lord Swaminarayan, the Supreme their way of going to Lord Supreme is much different. I am really glad that I am with Pramukh Swami or I am with the Bochasan Aksharvasi Purshottam Sanstha because it's different now it's so great in the world. You probably know obviously we have got 400 odd temples. So major temples this is the only organization, which has expanded and done so much for the World and for India Yeah. That kind of leads on to my next question actually because it's sort of, what barriers, the importance of doing sort of like charity work basically? We, this organization done lot and lots of charity. Yeah, I know that already so become. Road collections and Can collections and specially building this temple and we did the Can collection I can never forget that because I used to go to work. We have got a shop now, which we had in '89, we put a shop. My husband went most of the time. First I worked till '95 and I had a daughter in '86, she was born in '86 but I still went to work up to '95 and then I joined even the shop but whilst we were building this temple, we used to do Can collections on the way home from school. We used to come by train so we would go try and see any, go in the bins any, pick the Cans up from the bins, my daughter and myself. We would even go on the way home, there was a little park before we got into the car, at sort of near station so I, if we couldn't get a train from near our home, we occasionally went to the next station to catch the faster train. So we used to park near there and there was a mini-park, I still remember, it smelled, it stinked of beer cans but you know it was a Seva, I mustn't miss so I used to collect all these bins from there, the tins, cans. And then what they sell them all because? And bring them here. Yeah. Well we used to collect them at home in big black sacks. Recycle them and. And recycle and then we used to tell our customers to give them to us. Okay. So on. And what sort of shop did you have? Oh we still got it, it's News Agent. News Agents. Yeah. And is it in New Bury? Is it near where you live? No. It's in Thames , Briton. Oh okay. Have you heard? Near Kingston up that way. Yeah. So what sort of values and beliefs are important to you? First thing is the loyalty. Yeah. Truth, honesty. I think we are born on this Earth to do Seva for the people because when you come on this Earth you come with empty hands, you go with empty hands. The only thing you take with you, with your Soul is the Goods you have done to the world, everybody, public, animals, whatever. But what you have done to the world is what you take with you. So and this religion has taught me a lot, it's very important that you should not hurt anybody and I think I try and convert all my customers to vegetarian. Not many of them have been yet but I always bring them out the importance that why vegetarian is so important. Then anti-addiction, I try and tell them I still remind them, this is not good for your health. Yeah. Or good for you financially. And same with the drinks, but I don't sell drinks. You are not. No. Not beer. All of licence is next door so. Yeah. It's still to remind them. And you can see when you are drunk what happens, when you are not drunk what happens. Yeah. And also I guess with the principles of not eating meat, not drinking and of you know intoxication and stuff, it's the same if as not eating meat, I take it to feeling clean had it. Yes. To be sober all the time. Yeah. I don't even drink caffeine things like tea or coffee either. So, you keep on answering my next question. Sorry I keep on answering your next question. That's okay. I don't say I, do you believe in Karma or also. Karma. Or also Reincarnation. No it's reincarnation we believe in though Karma does play a lot of part but belief is that with Pramukh Swami, he is so kind that if we have done something wrong he will forgive us. Compassion. Yeah. And he will forgive us but we must not hurt anybody basically. So to eat meat or fish or eggs, it's taking somebody's life and we have no right to take somebody's life if we have no right to give a life. And my next question was what happens when you die? But you kind of answered that. Yeah. We believe in reincarnation. Unless your Soul has purified completely and you go to Akshardham, which is place of abode for Lord Swaminarayan and it's also very important about Lord Swaminarayan compared to any other Hindu religions, Lord Rama, Lord Krishna because in the Vachnamrut, I don't know if you are aware of the book, which Maharaj, Lord Swaminarayan's. Yeah I've seen. Book and the four Saints. Wrote it out but they are where Maharaj when he was on his first he described where his Akshardham is which the right top one and all the others come in-between. So if you believed in dharma, when you finish your good causes, then your causes are taken with your Soul, you came back again on Earth same with Krishna if you finish, you come back again on Earth but if you reach Akshardham you do not come back on Earth unless God, Lord Swaminarayan decides to send us all down. So it's. What? Very important that to believe in Lord Swaminarayan compared to any other of the Hindus. And also you said the same, if he decides to send you, the Soul down it will be in the benefit of others? Yes. Yeah. So you would come down and then. Yes. Teach. This is kind of funny one but I was, we ask this question, is it, you don't have to answer this even. Have you had any sort of religious or more importantly a spiritual experience, since you have been a part of this? I think it happens all the time. Yes. Me talking to you is big isn't it? It's good answer. Okay. Okay. Just a quick one on just Hindus today and then just basically it's the end, which is any comment that you would like to make. I think when my daughter getting intoxed with that miracle isn't it. Yeah. Not at all. No matter she might be a genius. No I do believe that she works hard but I think prayers help her a lot. Everytime she has got any school exam or any major exam. We pray a lot and my friends, relatives we all pray not only for her even when my nephews are taking exam, we all pray that hard work of theirs and prayers make a success in life. Did she how any. And my two nephews they both came to Britain as well and lot all my husband trying to call them to Britain. Okay. Now I got a, okay then basically would do you say, you obviously more religious today then you were, what about. Actually, when I was right young, right from seven eight years when I was very young, I have always been into religion though we weren't Swaminarayan. I was always been in to religion. I even at the age of eight and nine I used to fast a lot. There is one Shravan Month. For Ekadashi. Ekadashi. Yeah. And there is a Shravan Mahina. Yeah. She is that month I always used to do one meal a day and then I used to fast certain days like Mondays, Tuesdays different times, different period so I have always been into religion. Yeah. But what about youth today, you think more or less? Sorry. You know youth today, Hindus today, the younger generation. Younger generation they have a different approach and obviously they believe in Lord Swaminarayan as the supreme but they also want a bit fun at the same time. Yeah. What about the importance of like the mother tongue. Do you think it's important? It's very important. That's why our temple does a lot of work. Sunday schools. Then area wise they have school every Friday and they are all taught the mother tongue because the books are also in our language. Yeah, obviously, yeah. So it's very important that they. Then also to listen to like I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So my daughter has put GCC. I, we went through a hard work to bring her to Sunday School here inspite of having a busy shop on a weekend. Yeah. But I went out of my way to make my husband bring her here and bring her back. And I also make his family side children all of them come here. Yeah. Okay also this is kind of strange but what do you consider yourself today as sort of your status? Are you a Hindu primarily or are you a Indian or you are a British Hindu or what is your, what do you classify? I would classify myself as an Indian. I am proud that I am an Indian but because we stayed in Kenya and also because we lived here, we might classify us a British Hindu. Does that bother you? No. I am proud of it. So where do you see as home? Where do you see as home? Here. All right. Actually India but here as well. Because of the temple or you have got family here? Partly because of the family but partly because this temple was built, it's part of me. I think without the temple I don't know where I would be on this earth. But my Guru wherever I go it's my home so I do not feel, I do feel as home here. Yeah. Also just this is the final thing and then we will just finish this all, do you have any final messages or. What messages? Final messages or anything you would like to say or any thoughts on anything. I think everybody on this earth should visit this temple specially people living here in U.K. should all visit and see the greatness and at least realize who Lord Swaminarayan is because he is the Supreme Lord and if one wants happiness and peace they must learn and know more about Lord Swaminarayan and Pramukh Swami. Because they do find, just doing darshan of Pramukh Swami, they will feel the happiness in themselves and I tell all the time to my customers to come and visit this temple, which quite a lot of them have come and done. Some still haven't done it because luckily there is a local school, so every year two or three classes from that school come here. So as the children are growing, the children come here and with them I ask the parents to try and take a chance to go and see and they are just thrilled beyond words. And I think all the people on this world should try and have faith, if possible the right faith, which will give them happiness and take them to God and try and be vegetarian that's another important thing. I agree with that. It's so sad but they don't understand. If like the War is going in Iraq or anywhere else in the world and they say, "Oh! So many people died, so many things happened". But all the time they are killing this poor innocent animals and eating them. They are doing worse. Yeah. I agree. Okay. All right thank you. Thank you. Yeah.