Lord Swaminarayan, Swaminarayan sect 29th March, 2004 sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview 113 Manilal Shah Male 70 1934 Kenya, Nairobi

Harrow U.K. EN Gujarati, Hindi, English I would like to start off the interview with a little bit about your family background and feel free to tell me as much as you like as well because we want to make it like a personalized story as well, so any little stories that you remember just tell me. So, yeah, if you could start off with just your family background by telling little bit about your parents. Well, my father and mother they had came from India in 1940s and that, they went to East Africa. And they settled down in Nairobi in Kenya and of course, they started their life with a small business, very small business at that time and because we were three bothers and five sisters. And the only person earning for the family was my father. So, he had to struggle a lot to make two ends meet but he went through it and then of course, I was born in Kenya in Nairobi in 1934. I am coming to seventy now and of course, I was educated in Nairobi and. Okay, yeah you were telling me that you have schooled in Africa but I would like to just go back a little bit before we go to that stage. If you could tell me, do you know the villages or the towns where your parents were actually born? Yes, they were born a village in Gujarat called Devadia. Both of them? Both of them. And they of course got married in that small village before they traveled to East Africa. Okay. And what was your father's profession then there? He was a farmer. He was farming because I think as far as I know he had about ten acres of land. And did he tell you much about what it was like? Well, you know it was a, it is a hard struggle you know, because they cannot afford the people to do the job for him. So, he has to do with my mother of course as an helping hand and they used to do all this farming growing various types of vegetables and wheat and things like that and then of course they go and sell it in the market and that is how they used to survive. They had a little house in India. Now, this is all what I was told by them. I have not seen it myself and eventually they came to Kenya. Why did they decide to move to Kenya then? Well, I think it was that time when people had lot of attraction towards East Africa because the life in East Africa was much better against the struggle they were facing in India at the time. So they travel to Kenya for that purpose and it is not only my parents but there was hundreds of them and when they came to Kenya they, we did not have the steamer you know, the ship the big ship like which are traveled in the sea now. They came in a boat. It is a small boat traveling through that sea, rough sea and they used to reach Mombasa. Its a port where Mombasa. Even it took sometimes two months and even on that small boat they had to struggle, people used to fall sick they have seasick and but this is how they came to Kenya. So, then when they first came to Kenya then did they settle in Mombasa or did they? No, they were in Mombasa for few months only, few months only at our, one of our relation who accommodated, give the accommodation to them and then of course they made some arrangements in Nairobi. So, they traveled from Mombasa to Nairobi. They hired a room to live in and then my father used to work for somebody in a shop. And in the shop, if they finish the work at very late night my father used to sleep in the shop itself because then again in the early morning he has to be in the shop. I mean it was quite a struggle as far as I know, but fortunately I think we were very lucky to be born in Kenya, educated in Kenya, but we know what difficulties they have faced. So were all your brothers and sisters born in Kenya? No, my three sisters were born in India. The rest of us, we were born in Kenya Nairobi. Okay and so did your family stay then in Nairobi the whole, they just they moved there and then they just establish themselves there? That is right. That they lived there but very unfortunate incident happened in Nairobi because probably I do not know whether you know it or not, but in 1951-52 the struggle to get independence from the British government started in Nairobi in Kenya as a whole and there was a gang called Mau Mau. They used to harass the people, they used to kill the people, they used to loot people because they wanted the independence from the British government. And my father was one person who was shot by these gangsters while he was on the telephone talking to my nephew in the office of the shopkeeper. They just went and shot him and this happened in 1952. Now, I finished my education in Nairobi in 1952 and I just started working for the bank in Nairobi. The bank, Standard Bank Limited and that is how he died and it was a very bad incident, but he was not the only person who was shot at the time during those years. There were quite a few even the white peoples were shot. So, this is how it happened and then of course he had his own shop, eventually where I used to go with my brother to assist him in the shop. What kind of shop was it? It was a general grocery shop you know, selling all few small things like sugar and flour and salt and potatoes, things like that soap, bathing soap, things like that small shop. That is where I used to go. So, were you living in the center of Nairobi or were you living in the? Well, we were living almost in the center of Nairobi. It is the area called River Road. It is a area called River Road where we had a flat, two room flat. We never, you see it is not like these days when one person has got one room. Four of us used to sleep in one room at that time. And then of course my father died and then we continued. I continued working with the bank and then eventually we went into the business with one of our relation in a timber business, a sawmill, do you know the sawmill? That is where we went with my brothers and then I worked there for two years and then I got married. Having got married, now I got married in 1936, no sorry nineteen., I forgot all about it. It is coming in 2006. It will be fifty years since we are married I got married in 1956. How old were you then when you got married? Now I will be seventy in April. Okay. On thirteenth April I will be. So you were twenty? I was twenty. I was born in thirty-four, like fifty-six less thirty for, fifty-six less thirty-four. Twenty-two. And then of course we decided to go to India for the first time with my wife. So was your wife from that, born in Africa or she? She was born in Africa but in a small village in Kenya called Karatina. Okay. Is that in Nairobi or? It is out of Nairobi. It is eighty miles from Nairobi city. It is a small village called Karatina, where her parents had a shop and then we went to India for just to see the India for and we went around for about five and half months. Oh really. What was it like for you going there because I mean you have heard so much about it and then to go? Yeah, but we had some relatives over there. We wrote to them look we are coming and if it is possible for us to take us around and look after our self because we were absolutely new in the country. And we went right up to the Kashmir. We stayed for a week in Kashmir in a boat in a lake called Dal Lake. So we were, we enjoyed ourselves there is no problem, we enjoyed ourselves and then we came back. And when we came back I did not want to go in that timber business because I was bit fed up with all the dust and all that you know, with all the machines going on and. And then of course I went in the insurance business. So, I started working for the company to start with in Nairobi. Now the name of the company was South British Insurance Company and eventually, I decided to go on my own to become a broker on agency basis. I mean whatever business I produce they give me the commission against the business. So they were very happy to give me the agency. I had the agency from the South British Insurance Company for the general business like motor, building contents things like that, public liability, employees' liability, all sorts of insurance and then of course there was another company called Pearl Assurance Company. They were doing only life business. So, they were quite happy to give me the agency, which I had. So I was working for the life insurance for the Pearl and general business for the British Insurance Company. So I did that right up to 1972. I had my office in Nairobi in the Bank House. There was a big building of Barclays Bank. On the Delmar Avenue, it is a main road and I had my office on the second floor. The same Barclays Bank. Yes, the same Barclays Bank and then I continued as a broker. And in 1972 because whole thing because of this independence, the local people struggling to get independent from the British Government. They introduced the work permit system and I had my work permit for about two years and then of course they refuse me to give any extended permit so, I had no choice but I have to decide that where should I go and because I was born under the British Colonial rule I had the British passport and eventually, myself and my wife and my daughter decided to come to U.K. in 1972. Okay and can you tell me a little bit about win because you would have been aware of all the changes that happened in Africa, then over the years with you know, Africanization and stuff like that? Yes. Can you tell me and it affected you a lot quite personally obviously with your father? And can you tell me may be a little bit more about that whole process and how it affected the community because obviously there was lot of changes? Well, it affected in a lot of way because you see the British government started serving the notices to the shopkeepers. They must vacate the shop within so many months. They will not be given any further license to continue with the business. And with out a license it is illegal to continue with the business. So what people is to do? They have to close done the shop and because they wanted to bring all local people, Africans in the business community they started chucking out all the Asians and all rest of it by giving them the notices to either sell the shop to an African or vacate it. No more licenses. So it was not only people in a field like mine or people working for a bank or a post office as an employee or anywhere else. They all were affected because they would not give the work permit to work for a bank. They would not give the license to continue with the shop. They would not give the license to continue with the industry, a small industry of course at that time. So what person can do, either they have to sell it off to an African and it was a compulsion that any business you sell has to go to an African. You cannot sell to a British passport holder or an American passport holder. It had to go to African? Yeah. It has to go to an African that was the British government sorry African government policy and so people got fed up and they had no choice but some of them, I think most of them they came to U.K. from East Africa. Very few people went to India, very few and that is how they came and. Well, when they came here again, quite a number of people they have to struggle here as well because they came with the large family. They did not have much money and so as you probably know that quite a few people went to Leicester, which is quite, it is full of Asians there and most of them, they are from East Africa. And even in London, now I live in Harrow and Kenton, Harrow and Edgware and Wembley they are all, these Asians they are all from East Africa. Ninety percent of them, they are from East Africa. But having struggled in this country over a period of years, I seen people are well settled now. People have their own houses. Of course, some of, quite a few bought the house by raising the mortgage, but they have roof on their head. And today I see quite a few of them they are in the business, in fact quite a few they are in the industries now. So they are well settled. Well settled. And I just want to ask you a couple of more questions about Africa, before move on to U.K. Can you just tell me a little bit about what the Hindu community was like in Nairobi and you know, for your own family what was the, did you know? Did you go to the temple regularly or? Yes. You know, what was that whole scene like? You see, as I said that we used to live in a two room flat in River Road. Now, the fourth building from where I live was a small temple, Swaminarayan temple and that is where I used to go every evening to attend the Aarti. Every, every evening because it was just couple of minutes walk. Although I was too small but I used to go there and then eventually and remember my father they were all, they were follower of this particular sect of Hinduism. And because that temple was very near to our house I think, it gave me some boost that I started following that particular sect of Hinduism, which is called Swaminarayan. And my fathers were Swaminarayan and. So they were already? They were already in the same sect. And because they were in there and the temple used to be very near to our house, I think I had that practice going everyday. So I have a, some peace of mind also there and I started knowing the people there. And today even I know that people they are in London. The same very people, who I used to see in that small temple in River Road, couple of them they are here. So, Swaminarayan religion is nothing new to me, because my father used to follow that. I am following that. My children are following the same. My daughter comes regularly on Sunday here to attend the school. My wife comes every Saturday and Sunday to attend the congregation. I come of course, I am always here on the weekends but I also come during the weekdays if I am called. If they have our more groups coming here to see the temple because I am a official guide here as well and I also comp air the entire congregation on Sunday from that stage. That is the, that is the seva Swamiji has given to me, for which I am very grateful. So, that is your duty to do that then all the time? That's it, yes. Okay, and you said to me that you decided to move to England, was it 1972 Two yeah. Okay and did your whole family come together or did you come first and then your wife after or? No, we came together, our, three of us come together myself, my wife and my daughter. And I have only one daughter even today she is married, happily married, she has got two daughters. She lives in Harrow in Preston Road and she is an accountant. My son-in-law is an accountant, so it is an happy family. Okay, so when you moved to the U.K., did you have contacts here, family here that you moved to? Oh yes. That is very important. My younger brother, we have three brothers. So, elder brother and myself were in Kenya and my younger brother moved to U.K. in 1965. So, I had all the facilities in London. As such he came to fetch me at the Heathrow straight to his house. I lived with him for about three months and then I bought the house, got it redecorated with his help and then I moved in. That's it. What were your first impressions of the U.K. because I mean you had heard so much about it or seen on the television or what was it? You see, no, well I knew about London, U.K. because I used to make trip to London every two years. Okay, so you have been before. Every two years on holidays for four weeks because my brother was here, so I had no problem with the accommodation. He had a car to take me around and I used to come every two years for four weeks, three weeks, five weeks and go round and see everything. So it was not something very new to me. Okay. But, what about for your wife and your daughter? My wife had been twice before we came for good here. So she had little bit of knowledge about U.K., about the weather, about the traveling system, under ground buses, the type of houses because the type of houses we have here does not exist in Nairobi. It is quite different so that is, that was no problem. And how old were your daughter when you came? She came with my wife twice. How older she then when you came to live here then, was she? She was a, my daughter was born in 1961. So, she was twelve, eleven, twelve. She studied here then she studied here. She did her accountancy and everything here she did it. So, she when she came here then she would have started into secondary school? No, she started with a junior school and then she moved to secondary in Hatch End and various places they went and eventually then she went to the college and. In fact she had two degrees. First of all she became a pharmacist and she started working for Glaxo in the pharmaceutical department in research department making all sorts of medication, mixtures, and ingredients or whatever and she worked for Glaxo for eight years in research department and then she got fed up with those all mixture of medication and then she had transferred within the Glaxo department in the financial department. She applied for it and she had three interviews and eventually the management decided to take her. So, she started working in the finance department but she had no knowledge of finance because she had done pharmacist. So she started learning about accounts. So, she used to work in the evening she used to go in the college. During the weekends she used to study at home and this is how she became an accountant. Hard work. And what about yourself then when you moved here what profession did you carry on with what you were doing? Well, I was doing insurance in Nairobi as I told you. When I came here I started work for the insurance company called Legal and General, you see. I was an underwriter drafting the policy document with the all the conditions and exemptions and all that. So I worked for four years in Southgate in their head office as an underwriter in the commercial department and then I decided that I should go on my own like Nairobi. So, I started looking for an agency so, I had an agency from Norwich Union, I had an agency from Standard Life; I had an agency from Guardian Royal Exchange. So I had agency from three different top British companies and I started my business doing life and pensions nothing else, no general business. I do not want to touch building, I do not want to touch motorcar, I do not want contents nothing. Just life and pension. So in nineteen, I started work in '72 right up to '78 with legal and general. Then I started having agency from '79 right up to the time I retired. Oh, is it? What about your wife, did she work? She has never worked in this. She has never worked in Kenya. She has never worked in U.K. Okay. She is merely a housewife. And, what was it like for her then settling because I mean for yourself you were going out work and you daughter was going to school. I mean how did she, did she socialize then with the family or? Now what happened, you see we moved in '72 with my wife and my daughter and my elder brother moved in '73 just after a year and what happened luckily the house I have even now, the next house came out for sale before my brother came to U.K. So, I telephoned him that look there is a house next to ours which has come into market, do you want to buy it? So, he says what is the cost? How much price? What money she is asking? She was a widow lady of course. I said well, she is asking for thirteen thousand pound at that time. He said, buy it because the, it would be beneficial to both the families living next to each other. Even today we are living next to each other Are you still in the same place or? I am still in the same place and my brother is still in the same place. Both houses are together. That is nice. Yes, and so my wife had a company all the time because my mother was alive, all right and she of course, she died six years ago at the age of ninety-two. So your mother came to? Yes, she came with my elder brother. And had she been here before? She had once. Oh, once. Once before on holidays. Which, what was it like for her to come and live here then, it must have been a change? She was okay. She was quite happy because she did not bother anybody. She was a quite lady lets put it that way. She was a quite lady and she had her good age. She had never been to the hospital; never, not even for a night, only the night she had been to the hospital when she died. That was only couple of hours in the hospital when doctor said that she is gone, that is it. Okay, so tell me a little bit about how you got involved with the Swaminarayan Community then in the U.K. and how your involvement you know, that? Yes. Because I was involved going to the temple in Nairobi, I came to London and then we had the old temple over there as you will probably you know, where we had cafeteria and all that. So, I used to come very Saturday and Sunday to attend the congregation because I had an attachment with Swaminarayan. It was not something very new to me but the difference was that this was a on a bigger scale then what I used to attend in Nairobi. Because it was a small room where we used to go and pray. So this was on a bigger scale and I used to come with my wife every Saturday and Sunday in the evening to attend the congregation and then of course when Swamiji decided, when they bought this land and it was declared that there is going to a big marble temple here and the construction work will start on such and such month so I was involved as a volunteer in constructing of this temple. And as days passed by I was involved more and more and more and eventually Swamiji gave all this Seva, to sit in the reception, comp airing the congregation, as a guide and so and so forth. The whole like you right in there, right. Yeah, that is it. Okay so then tell me little bit about then your religious practices and your beliefs that make you, you know, part of this thing right? Oh, you see as far as the religious practices are concerned, we are very particular about it. We always pray at home after taking a bath for about twenty minutes and then of course we have our breakfast. We follow all the conditions of this particular religious for example not to have onions and garlic, no meat, no drinks we do not eat outside. I do not go the hotel or a restaurant for a cup of coffee or a glass of juice nothing. Why is that? Well, we do not because it is, we feel that it could be impure. If, we do not go for pizza even outside, we make pizza at our own house. So we believe in this and we are pure vegetarian. We do not touch eggs, no fish, no meat, no drinks, hard drinks, nothing. Even if we buy anything for the house of a home say for example if you were to buy packet of biscuits we read ingredients very carefully. If it contains animal fat or things like that we do not buy it. And what about because that is kind like a more, you know, that is actually practical things that you do not do, you know? Yes. But what about kind of more, the more kind of spiritual side to it as well. You the kind of beliefs behind or the morals or you know the, that kind of side to it, what are the things that you follow in particular you know what I mean? Yeah. Like actual teachings that are kind of given down about how to live your life as well? Yes, because we bought this holy book called Vachanamrat and also Swami Ni Vato, that is the title of the book, which we read at home. Which gives you some guidance as to how you should uplift your life spiritually and they give so many examples in that book. By reading that you feel that this is something which one should do and that is how and on top of that of course by coming to the temple or attending the congregation in this hall, most of the thing, most important is that you get peace of mind. That is very important because otherwise your mind or once mind is always thinking of something, which is no good to the health because it affects your health. But if you have peace of mind your health remains good, your brain remains good you can think straight and things like that. And, so you mentioned that you have the scriptures that you read every day. Yes. But, something you know, the kind of general things like Karma or reincarnation, these things are like quite broad? Yes, well. What are the things that you? Well, I believe this, that if you are on the right path you see, you do not have to come back in this world. This is the last life as far as I am concerned. When I die I do not have a rebirth. But that is only possible that if you follow the religion in a true way and then and then only god will help you to be your life, the last life so you do not have to rebirth and struggle again in this world? Yeah. And what do you believe then happens to you when you do die? Like you say this is going to be your last life so where is the goal, where? We believe and this is what the scripture says also that if your soul is pure when person dies, it straight goes to the Akshardham in front of the Lord Swaminarayan and that is where you stay. No rebirth. So Akshardham is the goal. Eventual goal is Akshardham. So it is absolutely for the Swami or Maharaj whether he wants to take this particular soul with him, to sit in front of him, Akshardham. Okay and do you, actually have a personal Guru yourself because I mean there is a strong line of Gurus in the Swaminarayan tradition, but do people any a personal Guru that they, you may be taken initiation from you know what a mean, you take? No, I do not have a personal Guru. My Guru is Pramukh Swami Maharaj, that is my Guru. Is that how it is for everybody in this Swaminarayan? This, those who comes here that is for everybody. Those who come to this temple and who follows this particular sect of religion they have accepted, they made as a Guru absolutely. And is there any formal acceptation you know, the way this there some time a formal initiation of acceptance or something like that or is it just taken that everybody who comes here, that is their Guru then? That is Guru, yes. Now, for example who is going to be our next Guru after him but whomever he chooses to replace him, we have to accept it and we will accept it. Because if we have accepted him I see no reason why we cannot accept the one chosen by him. And he has to choose one out of seven hundred. Seven hundred Sadhus that he has today he has to choose one, which he thinks will take over from him. And are those Sadhus worldwide or they are mainly in India? Most of them they are in India but quite a few in America. We have fourteen in London and most of them, they are in India different parts of India like Ahmedabad and Bombay and you know, there, now of course in Delhi. They are going to be, quite a few in Delhi when the month end is completed. Okay and what about the youth of today? Do you think that they are, its kind of a couple of general questions on well now Do you think they are more or less religious then say when you were a youth? Sorry, I did not get that. Sorry the youth of today you know, the next generation, do you feel that they are more or less religious when you were a youth, or a teenager? Yes of course, yes because you see now because of this temple the small children they attend, they come here and they get more guidance than what we used to get in our time. In our time we have never seen Sadhu in Nairobi, who would have guided us but today we have got so many Sadhus, fourteen in London and they can talk to them, they give guidance to them. So in short they will be a very good citizen of the country spiritually when they grow up because all the guidance given to them is from the very early stages, which we did not have. Okay, just out of interest back in Nairobi then you said that there were no Sadhus to give the knowledge? Yes. So, how did people get that knowledge then in the areas where there is not a Sadhu? Yeah, because we had this elderly people you know, who had read these scriptures so many times and they used to give us the guidance. So in other words instead of Sadhus they were doing the job. Okay mother tongue. Yeah. And, do you think it is important for the youth to learn their mother tongue? Very important. Why do you feel that? Well, you see it is better that they can communicate with the elderly people because there are elderly people who do not speak English and if this children does not speak Gujarati, how are they going to communicate with elderly people. And that is why this particular organization or this school running a Gujarati classes on every Sunday. Where about I think four, five hundred people attend and there is no charge, it is all free, just to give them the knowledge of Gujarati. Mother tongue is very important very, that is for any community. It is not only for Gujarati, for any community mother tongue is very important. Okay and another kind of a general question as well just to get your opinion on it, do you feel that it is important for Hindus to do charitable work or voluntary work? I mean you volunteer here but apart from the temple as well do you think it is important to do charity? Oh yes, it is very important because we always, we should look at the, we should look at the bright side of one's life but we also should look towards the people, deprived people and wherever we can help, if not my with money, say physically if you can help, it is very important and I believe that. You see if there is a disable person who need some help in a wheel chair to be pushed, you should do it. Or go in the olds people home and take some fruits for them or something to eat different you know, with the, of course with the permission of the authority. One should do it. What about, I do not know how much this affects the Swaminarayan sect but like the caste system, do you feel, personally do you feel that it is still prevalent in the U.K.? Well, it does. Do you feel it is important? Yeah. Or do you feel that its? No, it does exist to some extent but as far as Swaminarayan is concerned there is no caste here. No. No caste. Whoever comes in this particular sect of religion, we all call ourselves Swaminarayan. We do not call ourselves as Shah or Patel or Brahmin or whatever, there is no caste here. We are all together praying to god Lord Swaminarayan and so we are all Swaminarayan and remember this temple has got all the people coming here from different caste but we never discuss this caste business here. We are all human beings. We are all the followers. We all believe in Guru. We all believe in Lord Swaminarayan. We come to pray here to get peace of mind and that is it. Okay, and just a coupe of final questions then. Where, how, if somebody was to ask you, you know, who are you or can you identify yourself, I mean what would you say, because you got a strong you know, influence coming from India because your parents were from there but you are born in Africa, you lived in the U.K. first a long time and your family are all, family are here. You got a strong Hindu background but that is, the Swaminarayan is like the main thing that you follow, so there is a lot going on there, so what would you say if somebody was to ask you who are you? Well, I will say I am a British Indian. Following the Swaminarayan religion, simple as that. Okay and where would you say as home? Whose home? Where would you say your home is now? Where would you see you know, do you still see like Africa as home because that is where brought up? No, I see London as my home now. I see London because I have settled now it is nearly coming to thirty-two years and as far as I know that I am well settled. I have nothing to worry about. I am a retired person. I get my pension from the government for which I have of course paid through the national insurance but I am quite happy. This is home now. I am quite happy and perhaps our Lord Swaminarayan and Guru makes us happy with their blessings, so we are quite happy. Have you even been back to Kenya since you left? I came in 1972 as I said earlier. Then, I went in 1975 to attend a wedding of my niece just for four weeks. Since, then I have never been to Kenya. Okay, do you have any desire to go back, no? No, because it is very unsafe, I am scared because security wise, people are killed everyday over there and I see no reason why I should go there because my whole family is here. Yeah, okay. I rather, I would prefer to go to India for four weeks rather than to go to Kenya. Okay, but all your sisters come here then as well? Yes. Well, three sisters, they have expired. One sister is in India and one is here. So whole family is here. So just to round it off, I would like to ask if you have any final message or final word to give it to people who will be listening in the future? Well, the final word in short I can say that everybody should pray to god to start with. Make their life spiritually high and be a good citizens of the country. Wherever you live you obey the rules and regulations of the country of the government and become a good citizen that would be my message. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.