Reiki, Rose Line, Experiences in Egypt 26th February, 2004 sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview Abhijeet Joshi 116 Joshna Ramji Female 45 Kisumu

Leicester U.K. EN Gujarati, Hindi, English I would just like to start off the interview with a little bit of background information about your parents and do you know where they were born and specifically towns and villages where they came from? Okay my dad was born somewhere in India, a town called Veraval. And he came from a family of two boys and that's it. What's state is that in? It's in Gujarat and basically Dad was born there and he lost his mother, father and brother. He was an orphan within but I think when he was about eleven twelve, he became an orphan because his elder brother was sent to Africa because at that time they were immigrating. So his elder brother went to Africa on a boat and somebody pushed him over and killed him but the boat returned yes. Boat returned back and obliviously my grandma was really in a state of shock and so was granddad and in that granddad died within three days of the elder son dying and within another three days grandma died. So within a span of fifteen days my dad became an orphan. Oh my gosh. Yes, and then there was people living nearby from the community who looked after him and then at that time people were coming to, going to South Africa from India, coming to East Africa so dad came by ship to East Africa and settled in a place called Kisumu in Kenya. He worked for little while with these people as shoemaker because well, they are shoemaker by trade and they taught him how to make shoes and he was making shoes and then in about five odd years he had his own shoe shop and then he was introduced to my mom like an arranged marriage. So where is your mom from? Mom was born in Africa. She was born in Kisi, it's a very small village basically. At that time possibly there was probably about only fifty houses or some thing like that and mom was fourteen when she saw dad, well when the marriage was arranged like mom says, she was hopping around guests you know, how guest come and you hop around and ha how is it, so mom's hopping around and saying, oh who is it. And my mom's mom, my grandma on my maternal side she says to one of the other aunties take her away, one of her suitor. So mom had to be whisked away and that's it mom never talked to dad or anything and they were married within a few months. And then they met just when they got married? Yeah, they met on the day of the wedding I presume. And that's it and they got married and mom had her first child in the next ten months, she had my elder sister. Elder sister, so how old was she then, she must have been a? Fifteen. Fifteen, oh. So they got married quite young and had kids quite at a young age and that's basically when my, mom and my dad, the places they were born. And after that then obviously we had seven sisters including me and two brothers, mom and dad have been busy and basically they stayed there, daddy got a shop and obviously there was always rented accommodation. So mom and dad rented a place. They were living in what from what mom tells me is camps, that's when British Raj was there and there were camps and there was really the war and stuff. I wasn't born so I don't know anything about it but mom and dad used to talk about the blackouts and sirens and during the war and stuff and. So they were even effected in? Yes in Africa. Africa? Yes, I presume that must have been the Second World War so, yeah, and basically that's what happened and my sisters, elder sister was born and then there was a brother then sisters and then there was me and then there was another brother after me. So you were pretty much the baby? Yeah. I am the baby, I am the baby basically and that's about the mom and dad. Okay. And did your dad ever talk about, I mean he was quite young obviously when he went to Africa but did he ever talk about what life was like in India for him being an orphan in such a young age and before, before that as well, just actually village life? Did he ever talk about it? Yeah, dad didn't talk about it much but some body else told us that when dad's parents, he was an orphan they found him looking for food all over the place and they took him in basically and dad doesn't like to about it because obviously it's such a shock and his, at this moment dad has got no surviving family. He had a sister who passed away five years ago so, there is no immediate family. Dad is solely on his own at that moment and he doesn't like to talk about it. And I mean he has had a stroke, brain stroke so he forgets things as well but he never talked about his life at all. Basically we get little bits and pieces from people at that age and he has worked very hard and he got married to mom, never borrowed money from anybody, he worked hard, had his own business. Did he carry on that trade? Yes, he was a shoemaker till we came here in 1972. We had a shoe shop there and life there was, basically life in Kenya when we were in Kisumu was wonderful, in a sense like any tropical country. Kisumu is in Uganda, isn't it? It's in Kenya. Oh it's in Kenya. It's in on the border of. It's on the border, Okay. It's on the border of Uganda yes, it's on the border. So about India he hasn't talked much but about Kenya yes, Kisumu we have heard, we you know, we try and find out things because I am, my father dad's eyes actually and I won't when I was little I wouldn't, if dad went away on, like he would go once a month to Nairobi to get all the goods for the shop and if he went I wouldn't eat and I used to sleep with my dad till I was ten. And I was just very-very close to him, I wouldn't eat without him and stuff. And it was just nice and now when we are older, when we came to this country we would ask mom and dad how they got married and that's how they told us and they never knew anything. Mom never could even tell the, didn't know how to tell the time even and dad first taught mom about how to read, tell the time and all he told her was fifteen minutes past half past two and exact time 1 o'clock, quarter past, in between there was no time. So I mean I told my mom, mom when was I born and she says it was about teatime, the neighbour came for tea. So they didn't have noted, you know they never kept records. Yeah, they didn't need to, I guess. I mean it was always and even before, well before I was born the time they would say, oh yes, such and such is son or daughter was born on such and such a month and you were born just after that. So you were born just a month or a few days or. I said you didn't even know your dates. So I mean there was no need for them to keep any records so. And a lot of people find that now specially my generation up to my generation because not many of the parents had the birth dates and times and stuff. Luckily we do know the day I was born and the year I was born and when dad used to, women didn't go out at that time you see and dad used, mom used to, dad used to lock mom in the house and he used to go to the cinema. When in the evening? In the evening yes. And now I would tell mom, mom did you even ever think? She says no it was just a dumb thing, he would go at night with his mates and he had locked the house and go because none of us were born then. He would lock the house and he go and I will be inside, I will go to sleep. Can you see that happening in this day and age? Oh God no. And mom, at the very young age I think when one of the first after few months into the marriage, mom wanted to start sewing so mom sold her some of her, some gold or something and got a sewing machine and when dad would be away she would sew things and you know how you would afford some extra money so mom started sewing at very young age because she is interested in all sewing and she became a very good tailor and lots of people even up to this date. Does dad know now? No of course he don't. Then he started, he realized and probably had a messy talk about it then she became such a good tailor, everybody was asking for her to make sari, blouses and clothes. Even to this date I get certain people that knew her and they have kids saying, ahh your mom made my wedding clothes and my wedding blouses. Does she still make them? I said no, she has retired and she is too old now and they said gosh you know, she has made lovely blouses for us. So she is, that's how they started. Yeah, what was it like for yourself then growing up in Kenya. What kind of family, you know what surroundings, what you know what's the town like and schooling, socializing, you know, things like that? Kisumu was a lovely little town. Lots of Asians and schooling, I went to primary school for girls. It was called M. M. Shah primary School, it was just strictly for girls. All my sisters, most of my sisters had gone to that same school and basically education was like it was here but it was taught better, in a better way, that's how I feel. We had to do English, Maths, Geography, Biology, History, all subjects that we normally do here. Crafts, sewing we did all that and socializing, I was thirteen when I came here and the only socializing that I can remember is playing with kids my age you know the usual you play with dolls and stuff. I remember playing that and at that time the thing was, we had the cooking sets and we used to play that we can cook on it. Somebody would keep an eye on us and we cook on it and then there we play the seven stone game you know, how you pile up seven stones and you hit it with the ball. We used to play that game and then there was another game that we used to play was there was a stick was sharpened at both the ends and we will try and flip it. That's it. We used to play it that and basically used to go to school. Morning come home for lunch and I had some friends. I had a German friend she, her name was Andrea. They had come, her parents had come from Germany. They were with the mission, missionary so I had, used to go to their house and we used to go. There we used to have a library and not many people would go to the library because it was the Christian library in the sense, the missionaries had set the library and at time it was the taboo kind of a thing that, oh they are going to, the missionaries are going to convert the Hindus to Christianity. So most parents would say, don't go. I mean I first to went very quietly, didn't tell my mom and dad, anybody about it but then when my parents found out they said well they didn't say anything they said, I have told them I was going there to get books and I brought English books to read because we were taught English and basically from there I had another friend Goan friend, she was with English as well. We used to go to the her house and we used to, that was my first experience of reading "Beano and Dandy" and also there was a big thick book, they used to call it Princess or some thing and that had cartoons and stuff in it. So it was tough for me that and I must have been about ten then, and it was my first exposure to all these English magazines and stuff like that. And it was quite nice. I mean my education was quite good. We, I was, I used to be in the top first grades and then when I reached twelve that's when we do the G.C.S.Cs. You know, how you have the G.C.S.Cs here. We used to call it form seven and then I, because we were doing English and stuff, we used to have head, I was the head girl of the school. Because my, the head master, they used to say my English was good and if, we used to have elocution competitions from our school. We will be going to other schools, would take part and I have won quite a few times in elocution. So I was the head girl and then we have to give the speeches on sports day and basically look after all the other prefectand stuff. So I am, I had done very well at school and then after that I had went to form the highest education they used to call it. Form one and then just was there into about eight months and then came home one day and mom and dad said, we are going to London and I thought, ha really and they said yes we are going and I had nobody and didn't have any say at all. Mom and dad had, abruptly now that I found that what would have had, what had happened was that dad had the British passport because of British colony there and stuff and we were all automatic citizens because my dad was British and mom was born there and we became automatic British citizens. And dad had applied for the voucher, visas and dad wanted us all to come here and settle down because situation in Africa was getting bad because the Africans were retaliating and there was unrest and they were saying why can't we marry your daughters. And not particularly my, our family Asians they wanted to integrate so, dad said no before it comes to that we have to move. And because they had said if you won't give us your daughters we could rape them and you know, how things happen in Uganda. So there was a slightly start of unrest and we just moved now. So dad applied and we got the vouchers and basically I came home one day and I was told not to go to school tomorrow, we were going and I said, okay and then never even questioned any thing because mom and dad were sending parcels of things from there to here, like our crockery and stuff. So did they already have family here? Yeah, I had my uncles in London, my mom's brother in Surrey and then we had dad's distant cousin here in Leicester. And obviously dad wanted to come and stay with him so we came here to Leicester basically. And my first impression of Britain, come off the plane and it's cold because we came in December. And we have coats, luckily there is a place in Nairobi that sells overcoats. So every body who comes here in winter buys coats, second hand coats from there. And we had all the, dad had got us all winter coats and boots and stuff as when we came finally thing was okay and then I was looking, as we were driving down, we were going to uncle's house and I was looking for houses and I thought, when will my uncle's house come because there was brick houses every where and I was thinking, I guess that every body must be so poor here because nobody paints their houses because in Africa the thing was we all had big houses and they were all painted from outside. And I was thinking, oh these people are really poor and then when we reached my uncle's house I thought what, and went inside and then realized that oh, what houses are brick houses in Britain. Everybody lives in brick houses. Every body lives in brick houses so that was my first impression of landing into Britain in London and thinking, oh well. Let me just go back little wee bit and I just want to ask you what was the Hindu community like at the time that you were in, was there like a temple there or celebrations together and things like that? Yes, we had a wonderful temple about seven ten minutes walk from my house and we try and visit it every day. My dad used to visit it every day five o'clock in the morning, six o'clock in the morning, he would go there to pray. He was called Bhagat my dad was because when the priest would be away they would call dad to do prayers and dad was religious. Even at our house we had a shrine where would we, dad would wake up in the morning and do prayers and every thing and because I remember that very well because I would be sleeping in the room when dad would be doing the prayers and then he would come with the josh stick and we had the candles lit up and he would say, "God look after my daughter." And especially when I was, I would be ill he would specially come and put his hand on my head and say, "please God protect my daughter and no harm comes to her" and it is, I used think, "oh." And you know when I think back now I think, wow you know, I must be really privileged to have a father and in my, my mom didn't do any prayers, well. She did what ever sing a song and things but dad did most of the prayers in the house. I think wow you know, now when I think back, I think I must have been so lucky and the temple we had festivals yes. Oh wow we had the dancing festival Navratri, the nine nights, the preparations ahead of it. There would be three weeks before we used to have groups. Now my sisters and all the other neighbors and their daughters, there one group and there was another lady, she had another group and she had her girls and we would have our girls like we would have age groups from may be five to eight or ten to fifteen and fifteen onwards and then married woman and then we rehearsed the Garbas for the dancing and then there would be competitions and who ever played really beautifully the local business people used to give them gifts. They would say oh I like this girl little, it's little than younger ones. So she is playing beautifully as an incentive, we will give her make a gold necklace or a handbag and shoes or clothes or something like that yeah. And I had won quite a lot of things like that because, I mean everybody said that was, even yesterday my sister was saying that, oh Josh was very beautiful and very pretty when she was little and I was just so loveable. I mean I still get the, I mean they said, he was very lucky because any auspicious things that went on. Okay, talk about how lovable you are? Yeah, every body says, I was lovable and I was very lucky. They used to call me, if any body did any thing auspicious like they bought a new house and they wanted to go and put, we put a coconut and we take a pot with water and money and mug beans and stuff for God, they would take me with them and if they wanted to go do something just to go on a auspicious thing to do auspicious things they would call me, but I don't know why. But they used to say I was very auspicious and then I did used to do things like that. Festivals wise we have Diwali festivals and obviously mom would be jam packed sewing day in day night because mom was a tailor and people wanted to dress and dress making for Diwali and stuff and our dresses of the family were only get done the night, at night late at night mom would make our clothes and in the morning we will have new clothes and new shoes and all the lovely food that's cooked before hand and then we would all have a meal, family meal together, neighbors. I mean there was no you know, how there is a lot of segregation here now like Lohanas and Patels and shoemakers and tailors. There is a lot of segregation here. There we didn't have that segregation, we all met as one, we all met as one and there wasn't that, oh okay the Lohanas have their own community. They have their own community hall. There was just one wish house that the Shahs had and we all got together at the temple and every body united and did every thing together. And it was just wonderful at the festivals and oh it's a bit difficult in this country because of the cold and every thing but still we do celebrate in a big way. Absolutely. What was happening to your older sisters then at this point because they must have, well you were thirteen at the time, they must have been you know quite a bit of later teens, I guess? Yes they were. My older sisters they were basically in the higher education and stuff. They were studying, they were doing basically normal things like going to school coming home and obviously mom was doing work at home so, we would probably help out mom doing things. And then my older sisters would help out mom in sewing as well and cooking and cleaning and stuff. Well cooking, cleaning we had servants. One servant would come at five o'clock in the morning to do the dishes that were there left at night and one would come in the afternoon or morning when the other one left. So basically there was lot of spare time and my sisters were where we, because mom was creative, my sisters were very creative as well. And we used to make the, you know, how the saris here all delicately embroidered and stuff they used to do it at home on their own. I mean like I can remember my sister, she would go to see a film and she would see that wow that actress had got that sari, that print and then they would get hold of some bodies sari that had a print, they would get tracing paper, trace the whole sari, get all the threads and beads and sequence and literally sew it on themselves and make it. Even clothes, my sisters would look at, on the Bollywood movies and say, right in fashion then, that actress wore that suit and she would make exactly same suits and even now my sisters are apart from one older sister, she in Mwanza in Tanzania, she is married. She was married before we came here, but she is there and the rest of us weren't married so we all came here and got married and even now if we see something in the movies we would say, ah well we will we make it and my sister will make it. Really. Yeah. I mean I can sew but not that well but cooking wise, creativity wise I would just go to restaurant and if I eat something I will say, ah I will go home and make it so. You brought up that way in your family. Yes. Okay now go back to when you came to the U.K. and you have told me your initial reaction of arriving. It was like horror and it was cold. So did you all, how many of you came then, just your mother? There was my mom's, us all six sisters and one younger brother, older brother couldn't come because he was older. So there was six of us and the younger brother seven and mom and dad nine. So did you all come to stay with your uncle? Yes we came to stay with my uncle now my uncle had a house in Highfields on Worthington Street and then we had another uncle who was in South Africa, he had another house four bed rooms and he had a grocery shop in night on Evington so we split up between two houses and my uncle who was we were living with, he had two sons and one daughter and the mom and dad. So we split up the houses accordingly and we used to live accordingly, we stayed with them for about four weeks and basically they used to go to work, we used to be home. My older sisters, I think as soon as we came to Leicester, we stayed in London for a week and then we came to Leicester and we my sisters, older sisters had got jobs. I think they had jobs at 'Cora Factory', they are shut down now and dad got jobs immediately and there was a two of my other sisters I think had a, had some jobs at 'Thorn Lighting' immediately I think in the first couple of weeks they had got jobs and I was younger so I had to wait for education, by brother and my another one of my sisters. So. What about your father then? My father wanted to go into business of some sort and they were trying to sort things out with some body else to see what we could do and because my uncle had a grocery shop like a corner shop dad was, would be running that. So with that was mom and dad and then we got, there was a summer school at that same time in 1972 Idi Amin expelled the Ugandan Asians so there was an exodus of all the Asians. At that time they set up a temporary school, summer school, it used to be the old church, it's Leicester at Charles Street so I met up with the all the other Ugandan Asians because I was from the Kenya that time so I was allocated that summer school and at summer school it was lovely. We got to know the education, well the teachers and they taught us, they basically wanted to know how much English we knew, how much Maths we knew so we stick summer school for couple of months and then we, I was particularly given a school called Wakeley school, it was a special school set up on Caravans, not Caravans, Mobile homes, yeah it was specially set up for a Ugandan Asians basically. This was on Wengley Road and basically we were, they had seen what our work was and they were put in a class, all of us put in 'five X' now that was the top class, people who knew English and Maths and stuff and then we had 'five Y' who didn't know more and 'five Z' who hardly knew according to ages and stuff. And the whole school was basically set up for all the Asians and the teachers there were wonderful. Now when I think back to think they must have given up their normal jobs where they were working to come and teach all these people from Uganda and what ever. So how long did you stay in that school, is that permanent situation or was that in? I stayed in that school for one and half years because it was two months we were at summer school and then I think in September or in August, September we went to Wakeley and we stayed there for one and half years and immediately I mean like in Africa I would, was it 'form one' it would three years before I would have given my G.C.S.Cs. I came here and we were kept on G.C.S.Cs. We had to do it in one and a half years and so I picked up the English, it was no problem, the Maths was not problem, I was the head of my class. Oh Mr. Boy was my teacher, it just came to me his name after a long time and we had Mr. Stoker, the English teacher then Mr. Pearson, the History teacher. Oh you got the good memory I can't remember my teachers. And the general we didn't do Chemistry or Biology, we did General Science. I don't remember his name but I think we used to call him Mr. Scooby Doo and then we had Mr. Pindell, the Art teacher. Oh there's, and then we has Mrs. Anette, she did R. K. Religious Knowledge. It was lovely. The teachers were lovely, the head master was lovely, Mr. Pennington and they were all really, really lovely. They helped us quite a lot of we did assembly. We were having assembly every morning and then they used to give us things to read and basically they guided us and we took, we were told to take two lots of exams, one G.C.E. paper and one is C.S.C. paper and we were told if you do not pass your G.C.E. you will get a C.S.E. pass some how so you have some qualifications but most of people in my class we got C.S.E grade once that was an equivalent to a G.C.E. pass as well. So and I got English, Maths, R.K., I didn't pass my History and General Science. Oh my gosh. What happened then with your family, did they got their own place eventually and? Oh yes, after a month we got a rented house, we got lovely rented big house that was in Highfields. Oh gosh, this was something else, was a shock to me. It was a house in Highfields and it was a lovely big, a lovely big lounge, dinning, kitchen, down stairs in oldie woldy thing where you could through coal in the, there was a boiler something that you through coal in and then there was central heating fortunately in that house and there was a cold fire in the down stairs and I used to love that and there was four bed room upstairs and then there was the attic as well. All right. So it's there. It was a big house. It was a lovely, lovely house and we stayed there for a few months or possibly we stayed, we could have stayed for I think, yeah we stayed there possibly for eight ten months because I was still at school, and then my brother came over from Africa and he couldn't well he had to apply for visas and what ever because his family was here, so we wanted him to be with us because of whole family wasn't here. So I don't know what procedure was back in then days but brother came over to stay here and he came and saw every thing and immediately after a week we moved house and moved to Wigston and then afterwards when we spoke to my brother and he found out, what had happened was where we were living in Highfields it was a red light district and we had never known. I mean I can tell you my experience now. I mean I had come from a big, I was walking along from school one day and this men wound up the window and he said some thing, I didn't understand what he was saying but I never knew what it was. It was a red light district because we had never seen any thing like that in our lives and I just I couldn't understand what he was saying so I just said I am sorry I don't know what he is talking about and so he must have realized and then we went home nothing and then when brother came, brother saw that there was all sisters, six of us ladies and where we were living so brother said that is it, I am not letting my sisters stay here. He realized immediately. He realized immediately and mom and dad wouldn't have thought of it, given it a second thought at all so brother came and says, no way my sister are living in this place, so he went and immediately started looking for a house and we had some money so bought a house in Wigston and basically moved there immediately. And then when I see, now when I think about that I think yeah, we must have been so naive because where we were, I mean about ten doors across on the opposite side there was always used to be these women standing at the door in a fur coat and you didn't never thought of it and then at that time we never really never because we were naive, we didn't know that prostitution went on like this in streets and stuff. Oh that's wild. And then we moved to Wigston and obviously where we were living there, there was lots of Asian people because everybody had moved to that area and obviously when we moved to Wigston there was no body, there was no Asians what so ever. There was just all white people and the community there made us feel so lovely and so welcome and it was just wonderful. We would go on the bus and every body would talk to us and ask us where we are from, what we are doing. The neighbors we had, the English neighbors, lovely neighbors you know would talk to us nicely and what ever it was just basically wonderful. Okay, and what was it like community wise then, were there any temples at that point or do you have time to go to the temples or? What was here? At that point I did, I think there was a temple or. I didn't go to any temples at that point, the only thing I remember at that point is after moving to Wigston our first, there was the first we had Navratri, the dancing festival and we used to go obviously we didn't have cars then we were traveling by bus and these people had organized the dancing near (inaudible) and we used to travel there then, to go there to dance, just for the night and we used to sing and dance and it was, I mean we were just discussing it last year at gosh, you know, when we came from Africa we are so enthusiastic, we have to go dancing now and we used to keep our clothes ready and at that time I finished my education after we had moved there and just waiting around what to do and daddy won't, didn't want me to go to a college, to a mixed college so I got a job with my sister was working in warehouse so, what you call it a Chemist sort of warehouse so I got a job there for three or four months. And then after that there was a advert in the paper, I think I was only, I was sixteen, I turned sixteen then. British Shoe was training young people on keep hunching data processing operators so I applied and I got a job there. So I got a job and then worked there for six months but I worked there for few years and then one of my friends was doing the computer programming so, I showed interest in that and dad said yeah you could do it, so I just do my classes in computer programming, Cobol and Fortran and stuff and it was wonderful and then in 1977 I was crowned you know, I was rebels at the moment as well because I used to work for this British Shoe company and they had the, they had their annual dinner dance and stuff, so me and my sister we went, mom and dad nobody knew about it. We went and every body was telling me, Josh why can't you enter them, they have the Miss B.S.C competition and they said Josh why don't you enter in it I say No, so I said and then just I just entered for hack of it and I won. And that was a moment and half because at that time there was this current song was 'Isn't she lovely Isn't she wonderful' and then when they crowned me Miss B.S.C that song was played, so that stays in my mind quite well. I mean I have had some wonderful moments in my life. Oh how sweet. I have had some absolutely wonderful moments in my life, so that was that. That was that. Oh it's brilliant. So it all seems pretty you know, pretty nice you know coming here because there are a lot of people, they had a difficult times? You didn't experience any thing? We never had any difficult times. I didn't experience any difficulty, I suppose we didn't experience any difficulty what so ever every body was wonderful every body was nice the only, I mean I studied here quite nicely, got a job quite well, where I worked every body was wonderful, colleges, every thing was lovely. Yes, I was torn between cultures, I must stress that, I tell every body that. I was really torn between the Asian culture and English culture because mom and dad wouldn't let us go to dinner, discos and dances and stuff because as it was not our sort of a thing, but they came down to it after wards and they used to let us go. And it, there was this thing definitely because I was taught, because I was quite westernized, I mean English clothes and I what ever was in fashion I had to wear and I had to get and stuff and I have had some, I got some lovely clothes and wonderful experiences too. It's just been wonderful. The only bad experience I would say I have had is we after I met my husband we went to a pub, we walked in and nobody would serve us so we looked, walked to one barman he wouldn't serve us and another one wouldn't serve us and then there was lots of people started saying Pakis out, Pakis out and. When was this? This is going back to twenty, twenty-one, twenty-two years ago and I used to think, and I wanted to stand there and fight them and say what the hell are you talking about. We don't segregate, to me everybody is equal, we are all human beings and my husband and I had another friend with me, her boy friend said no Josh don't because we are outnumbered here and apparently that pub was known for national fund activities and what have you. But apart from that I have had no problems at all, when I am just had a lovely life with my business I have been quite okay, doing my hairdressing and stuff. Yeah, how did you progress from computer programming to hairdressing? I was really comfortable, very different. I worked for British Shoe and then I moved on to another company called Express I did, I looked after their computer data processing and all that needs and programming and then I met some body who was into hairdressing and I was having head aches and stuff with programming and stuff and I basically went trained up into hair dressing and beauty and stay, I was with this person doing the hair and beauty for twenty odd years and then things went wrong basically and we parted twenty-four years ago and I got my own place here. And I had been very bubbly and bouncy and out going and I also used to work at the radio station, the local radio station that was Asian radio and stopped that for various other reasons and got this place and start running this place doing hair and beauty, I am doing quite well and then I got an opportunity to go into television. So at the moment I produced, directed, and co-host programme called Saheli on Milan Asian Television and that is broadcasted through out Europe. And the programme, well I show all different types of crafts, all types of crafts, not meaning Asian because normally on Asian Television they will show Asians crafts. I am trying to expose the Asian public to other crafts, that the other communities have, the European communities used and do and it's doing very well. I also interview spiritual leaders, we do yoga, maybe exercises, diet, fitness, hair, beauty and once a month very popular programme I cook. I cook and I am chef once a month on television and I give out recipes my own recipes that I create and they are quick fast and they are very popular because I give to the point recipes that when you go home and you try it they just work. They worked, fantastic. So basically that's about me. You do all things. Wow okay and so here we heard a lot about you and then your history and like I said before I want to ask you some questions to do with your religious background and your own personal religious practices. I mean you have mentioned before that your family you know very religious roots and your father is deeply religious. How did that change then when he came to the U.K. and also how did your own personal practices change over the years? Okay, quite a lot. In Africa basically when I was in, we were in Kisumu, it was just a dumb thing. If like Shiva's birthday came that is Shivratri normal practice every body in the house fasted. You went to school you had a milk in the morning and you probably had a banana or some fruit and nuts and you came home and you went to the temple and then you came and broke your fast and that was standard practice. Any big religious events every body fasted. Came here, a - sometimes you didn't have an access to an Indian calendar, you, some times you wouldn't even know what festival it is, what's going on so, you couldn't fast, you couldn't go to the temple because there wasn't a temple. Okay there may have been a temple at that time but then I wasn't aware of. My parents probably knew because at that time you, we didn't question things. I mean you know, you will probably think of thirteen year old should know, but we were pretty naive. I mean, I didn't even know about pregnancies at that age seriously, I mean how babies were made. Now in this country even a seven year would know and it was just we were so naive we were basically naive and we didn't have, not every body in Africa where we came from a Kisumu had televisions even at home. Our neighbor two doors away had a television and so if there was any thing major coming on, I mean I remember when they landed on the moon, all us got together and the neighbors said come on all of you, you must come to my house tonight and watch it on television and big things like that. Okay, it is an event to watch the television. Yeah, so it big things like that. And we came here, there was television then fine, a lot of exposed television but religiously we didn't have too much things happening, we didn't go to temple much but we had a shrine at home that we prayed to. We did prayers at home but we didn't go to the temple and like I told you the dancing festival we did and other small festivals we didn't take part in because I think mainly it was transport and the time because it is awkward even now in this day in every body has got access to cars and stuff. Like we had the Shivratri, Shiva's birthday last week, we couldn't, not every body could go. You could be working, there will be shift work, you could come home and possibly the time in the temple is seven o'clock, you may come home from work at nine o'clock, so is it finished. So there isn't that access and the temples, the temples here are very good and the things happening is very good and I think the government helps quite a lot with all the religious activities and in Leicester is the multi cultural place and I think a lot is done here. In Leicester there is lots and lots of festivals being celebrated and it, it doesn't feel like and as if you are either in another country. It feels just the same, I have just come back from filming a project in India. I went to filming for television for a holy thing, it was this 'Jaymari in Kheda' and he has got special healing powers. God has given him and whatever and similar things happen here when he comes here we take much of the counsel, we shut the road, we go up, he rides on a Baggi and a horse and then we have every thing happening, the same things we did in India. But in India it's on larger scale there was 300 thousand people. I just thought, wow and then I was, I feel really honored to be able to speak about it as well because I was given special privileges to go and sit there in the front of the ceremonies. I gave lots of speeches to all these people and told them how things were here, what we did here. Is this just quite recently? Just a eight days ago. Oh wow. And I truthfully I thank God, I thank all my angels and all the spirits and all my guides I mean I have become very spiritual now, I wasn't this. That's what is my next question was going to be, what are your own personal practices and how they have changed? I, you know, you asked about do you follow religion and blah, blah, blah. Okay I did, we used to do lot of fasting, my family did lots of fasting, sisters every body did, even I used to then a point came into our lives and very sad point, my brother died in a car accident and I stopped believing in god because I told my mom I says, he hasn't hurt a fly, he is such a lovely man. Oldest son, he had a wife and two kids, the son was only eight months old, my brother's son and I wouldn't, I stopped believing in God. I said to my mom I stopped believing in God, how could he take somebody and for a few years I didn't and mom used to make me understand and says look his time was up. We all have to live we have to, life has to carry on, we miss him, to this day we still miss him but life has to go on. So I said that okay fine so I started believing in God again and what have you, but not that religiously I wouldn't do all the days of fasting. The rituals. Yeah. I wouldn't do all the rituals. I would go to temple genuinely, my belief my own personal belief is now that I am older, I am forty-five and I feel, God is in your heart. You do not have to go to temple and you do not have to take your prayer beads and sit there in front of the temple and say, say that, speak all the mantras and take josh sticks and candles and pray to God. God is within you, you yourself, you are God, so why would you need to go out. Okay some times you feel, you need to go somewhere, spiritually you need to just attend and go and see some deities or whatever but God is within you and all this I have realized in the past two years. I met a very wonderful spiritual person and I learnt Reiki and through Reiki my total life changed. I become very spiritual. Now I am a Reiki master. I teach Reiki as well and my beliefs have changed. I never realized, I mean like I said earlier on, people used to think I am lucky and things like that but now I am realizing it may be we had one religious leader coming and tell mom and dad that she is gifted and it didn't make much sense to me and ever since I have been little, I would think of some thing and say, oh this will happen and it happens. And now I am realizing that may be I am spiritually, I have something that a sixth sense within me that does because even now I think of somebody and that person comes or calls. So it's, I don't know what ever you call it deja vu or whatever things, events you know things happen and I basically believe a lot in angels now and how the spirits and guides and every body helps us and become more spiritual. My path is more spiritual now. I would like to devote my life, well basically through my television I am teaching people lots of crafts, cookery even spirituality, when spiritual leaders come, I interview them and tell them about yoga meditation and basically my path is to teach people, and I am just basically doing that. Okay do you have, you have mentioned that you know, you followed few different processes or but do you have a particular Guru that you follow and get guidance from or? Yes, at the moment I didn't have any Gurus, people have Gurus and stuff. The only Guru I felt I wanted to be initiated with is Swami Shankrananda. He is from Orissa and he follows the Kriyayog and Parmahans Yogananda, every body has heard of him in America and all that. He is one of those descendants and he is my Guru and he is such a lovely person I mean he doesn't, most Gurus will say, you have to do this, you have to do this mantras things he doesn't, he, you just pray you do your meditation, you do not have to follow him every were when he comes from India he pays for his own fare, no aids and graces. Some of these saints that come here they demand for how the place they live in and they only come and stay at people who are very rich and they have all this pompous things, activities going on. But my our Guruji Swami Shankrananda, he is down to earth, he will come and stay at your house, my house. Even I invited him to my saloon, I thought will he come. And he says why not and I had cooked some parathas with, we called it 'Bajri na thepla' and he ate that with me with garlic, onions any thing, yoghurt and he ate, he says I will eat what you eat he says, and it was, he is just like you and me. So I, he is my Guru other wise I am a Hindu. I say I am a Hindu but I believe in all the religions. I will not say, oh I am staunch Hindu, I will not go to Muslim temple or a Sikh temple or I will not go to church I visit every body all faiths. God is one, it is just because I suppose I say I am a Hindu because I from a young age you said you are a Hindu but I believe in all religions. Have you ever had, this a personal question you don't need to answer if you don't want to, but have you ever had any deep spiritual experience where you may be felt the presence of God or some extra being there that could may be? Yes, quite a lot of times. I went to Egypt and they Sakhmet there at, I think its three life or some where like that and excuse me let me shut this phone. I went to Egypt two years ago and there was a Sakhmet's temple. Now I do believe in reincarnation and I had past life regression and stuff done and I have been, I have been a healer in Egypt, I have been a traveler in Egypt, I have been born as a mother in, it's not Singapore, it's one of those towns there. I have been born as farmer in Russia. When I have been in one of the Eastern Countries I have helped in the war, hide lots of prisoners and helped them because I had this dream all the time, it was all dark and it's lit up, litten up taking people in and hiding them. I never understood that they kept on coming and then I have this past life regression and it's from that I have found that I had been, I had help during a war to hide lot of prisoners and stuff you know, in a past life and then when I went to Egypt, this temple amazing things, I mean the force that had hit me as if Sakhmet, Sakhmet is an Egyptian lion God and that Goddess specially has healing powers and I basically connect with Sakhmet and I think in hundreds of thousands of years ago, I have possibly walked the plane with Sakhmet with the energies and the energy, I mean I was, it was something I don't even know when people in the group said, we were just praying to Sakhmet, the big six foot statue of Sakhmet, and I am just praying there and then all of a sudden I climb up to the statue and hold Sakhmet and I just start laughing and I talk about a person which I wouldn't, mention the name that I love that person and whatever and every body was flabbergast, when I come down and there is another medium who was with her Susan, she is singing a song I don't know in what language and I am singing it with her. I don't know even today what language that is but people they told me that Josh you were singing did you know? I says, no this particular friend of ours he even said, he said Josh, he didn't know till last year that I was actually singing, he thought that this is, that was Susan singing but I sang and so I have had lots of vibrations, lots of things that happened and when I think about things they do like I said, before it happens. I have had, like when I am meditating I have had these vibrations that come through. Like a jolt or some thing, yeah. Yes, and I mean I had my, I was teaching Reiki to two students at the weekend just gone and they were just amazed and the energies that went through, they were, I was sitting there initiating them and I was initiating Doug and Doug said, Josh I have got this Chinese, Japanese man standing next to me in a silver cloak, silver white hair. I don't know who it was but it was one of the peers who had probably come at the time of the blessing and I initiated the woman, Su and Su, her experience was while I was initiating her, she had the third eye flash in front of her and she felt lots of heat, lots of vibration when I was initiating her and she had Sakhmet come to her and while we were I, me and Doug were healing, I taught them how to heal, do Reiki at the positions and and obviously it's not me it's not my energy, Reiki isn't my energy, it's the universal energy I am just an instrument passing it on. And I always tell every body don't think I am a healer, I am not a healer I am just a human being I am just an instrument through God, he is making me do this thing so don't think I am something. And we heard a growl and there is no dogs cats any body here in the saloon and it was just distinct lion's groan just once so, what we interpreted as was it was probably Sakhmet, the lion God's presence there. So all these been happening since you have taken up Reiki, yeah? Reiki, yes. Just I have a interest. Yes. How does your family identify with this? Because it so different, you know. Yes. I first learnt Reiki, I went home and did my hands because I learned Reiki of Suresh, his my master and I was doing Reiki, did the hands healing and mom said, I told mom let me heal try and see what if I can help you. Mom has got arthritis and rheumatism and angina and every thing and she didn't say anything to me but she told my sister in law, she says what she is doing this thing with hands, if she tries going around the community doing this thing with hands people will says she is doing voodoo, and I basically thought mom people most, not most some of the older generations of Asians would think that if you are doing voodoo or something with black magic or something. So I kept on doing my bit and then after four weeks I didn't go for a week and heal mom and then she says I went and she says can you do me that thing with your hands. It feels like a hot water bottle when you put your hands on my body. I says, ha mom that's Reiki and now she tells every body, she tell all her friends, yeah my daughter does Reiki and it is good and she understands it now. So she has started to understand what it's all about? Yeah, but they cannot understand my Egyptian trips because I go to Egypt twice, nearly twice a year. I went to Rome; nine of us were chosen to go to Rome. We through spirituality and stuff to clear the Vatican of bad energies. Oh okay. And I was, I find myself again one lucky that I was one of the nine chosen. I was the only Asian. We have a Isis in, oh gosh I forget the name at Shambhala and she basically, we go with her to Egypt and she guides us and every thing if there is any thing and then we would have our intuition and I had this dream one night that I, there was all the Egyptian people and then me and Suresh we went in to, we all go and went into the room and Isis was laying on a couch and all of sudden, I went and touched Isis feet and I did that with my hands and sparks from my hand went to her feet and she lifted to the ceiling. Oh my god. And I am saying, oh God Isis what have I done and I am in a panic. I am saying, oh God what have I done that's lifted her right to the ceiling and she is sitting there laughing and she, Isis I don't know how old much, she is much older and she is quite big but, she in my dream she was smaller, lovely hair, lovely smile and she is just laughing at the top of the room at the ceiling there, and I said, oh God Isis and then I told Suresh about it and he just went and tell Isis and I told another friend Louis, we were all spiritually connected and she said, I spoke to Isis and Isis said, ah Louis told me basically, Josh I think may be you are to play a part in Isis's life to may be lift some thing spiritually. So I, Isis and she was doing this trip to Rome and she says, I think you are one of the people who will complete the circle to, of energies. So we went to Rome and did lots of things in the Vatican spiritually, basically it's the I don't know what room I forgotten, but it's where all the people are, all the, they have got the tombs of every body what ever it is called. Okay, yeah about the previous Pope's. Yeah and in the Vatican I don't know if every body knows but may be I think lots of things that one suppose to happen, happen like you know years ago kids were raped and women, so it was just basically they will look back but there were weird things happen then I don't think if I am supposed to even talk about this actually. If you can go in public library but weird things happen. I, we got people strange people would, this well dressed people, some body who is dressed up in you know, those big Sherlock type coats, I was in the square out side the Vatican and they came and said, oh what nationality I was and who I was. I thought something weird and anyway we had lots of experiences like that and basically there are set of things that I can't talk about that. Yeah. So I won't talk about it, because that experience in Rome it's some thing wonderful, I wish I could share it with people but I am getting a strict thing that do not share it because we went out there to cut off all the ties. I don't know how much you believe in black magic and stuff that we are all light workers, all we will do is do good and give love and light to every body but this dark forces and they have a network underground through crystal energy. They do all that energy work and we basically went to cut all that off with all our energies. And you went to Rome to do this, why is Rome so important? There is a crystal underneath. The Rose Line, I don't know if you have ever heard of the Rose Line you know, how there is the Greenwich Meridian Line, there is the Rose Line, the original line it was there, that has to do with lot of power and lot of stuff. It's that just running through the Vatican we have seen it and we have been there and. And why is Egypt so important? Egypt because we have been to, the group, lots of, there is lots of Gods and Goddess Egyptian because we have all got a past in Egypt. Now this is really, really, really weird, I think need to. Just like the people in your group have a past in Egypt, okay. Yeah, there is the temple in Cairo, I mean traveled, remember the temples name for such a, even yesterday but I can't remember the name. There is a temple in Cairo I was drawn to it from the first day we went in, walked out of the hotel and the temple was five minutes up the road, I went on my own to visit that temple, walked inside and I was in tears, I was crying, I was so emotional, I was, oh every body was looking at me, my feet were so heavy, couldn't carry myself over, I was crying out, I mean within me I was calling some body and saying please come to me I need you, come and take from here and finally after two hours I dread myself out of the temple went away. The next day we all went in there and I had some wonderful, we did some ceremonies in the temple there and apparently through a past life some one of the girl had stabbed at me and I didn't even know that I felt a pain here and I said, I must realize that I had a pain here and this Louis behind me she says somebody must have stabbed you I says, what, because I don't believe in such things. I am not stupid here, I am only believe, I am a reporter for Christ's sake. I only believe what I see so I stabbed her and she says yes, and she says, actually she says I had you stabbed because I was jealous if you had a poison bag stuck in your back and there was the pain I was feeling when I went to that particular place and then Daisy, she is a sister from my past life, she was there. In this life she is physically, we have get lots of things in common then and she was there and she and her together with her vortex and her energies, they got the knife wound off and provoked that thing to call the pain off from the past memory because that's in my memory out and I was literary I was, I didn't puke actually but I was coughing out as if taking things out of my mouth. And there was lots of tourist standing there thinking what's happening and as soon as they are finished they just visit me and Daisy said Josh we better get out of here because people started asking about what the hell is going on. That was the first year, the second year I went again we were left to go to our own devices and then there was Ramasis, a big statue there, I have been pulled there. Even last time I went there, the first time when I sit behind it this curse taken out, stood there in front of statue just cried, looked at it and I am just roaring and literary crying. So this time I went there and stood there in front of Ramasis and I think it is Ramasis the second if I am not mistaken but I need to check it when I go there in June and I says right here I am any thing you want from me I am here. Fine nothing happened and then I said okay no just, and I am standing here, that's Ramasis there, I am standing here and I am walking and I am saying okay fine and I am going, I am walking and I can't walk back, I am going like this, I can't, I am literary going, I am standing and I am saying no I am going and I am walking and he is pulling me back. The statue is pulling me back and I am going round and round and fifteen minutes I am going like this. So then I says okay Ramasis I am here I give you my love if there is some thing between us or has been or if, what ever I am to your wife, your child, your mother, your what ever your lover whatever I am be in your past life I am here I give you my love and my love is there for you whatever it is let me go I have to go now, but I will promise you I will come and see you and fine go. And then there was this particular sphinx in the first year I went. In the same temple there is about 50 to 80 sphinx lined up, this particular sphinx I was drawn to it and I went and roared, I just went to that sphinx and I cried my eyes out. Do not ask my why not all the other eighty but this particular sphinx. That's amazing. So some, I mean like in another temple I went to, basically I was standing there and I was supposed to do some ceremony there I feel and every time I tried to walk I was pushed against the wall, every time I walked, I literary couldn't walk away I was just I mean I think the place I was in was a some kind of ceremonial thing and I must have been a key member or I don't know what but as soon as I when I stood on the main altar I tried to walk away and they won't let me walk away. Was it not frightening? No, it is just, I don't know, I suppose because may I feel may be I had been done it before so I don't mind I mean, another wonderful experience was the temple of a Cyrus. There, it is still there the water and every thing, the flower of life, the flower of life symbols I mean beautiful, wonderful moment for me to go and film it. The symbols are, it is a no go area but they let us go. The symbols are engraved on the wall and people may think of flower life is all what ever it is may be don't believe it but I have seen it with my own eyes and believe it and filmed it and the guy who was looking after the place threw water on the symbols, all you could see was quite big about twenty thirty foot pillars and then half way down you see a faint pink some symbol so we, they knew what we, they probably realized we have come to see some thing, they threw water over it and dark pink, the symbols went dark pink. I thought wow it must be, there was only a handful of us there. I thought wow we must be so honored to you know, to be able see them yourself. Yeah. You filmed as well. Yes, I filmed it. I have got all on my tapes. So I mean if ever I mean I wish if any of this like B.B.C or Eye T.V or big channel approached me and they could go to Egypt and I could talk about it or even if they could use material that I have, it would oh absolutely mind blowing. Yeah, that is very exciting even thinking about it. It's just a wonderful, just absolutely wonderful. I mean I have had lots of wonderful. This is all in just a last couple of years? Yes. It's such a change. It's such a change. I mean now oh yes, I mean there are certain things I will probably tell of the tape and oh it's just you know, just I mean things are happening, you thing wow really and it is just wonderful. Oh that's amazing. I would want to ask you other questions but there seem someone doing comparison. Go on Yeah like that, you know. Yeah, I was just going to ask you, there is always general issues that people like to talk about and debate about and then things like that, so I always ask people these same questions just to get their opinions on them. What is the caste system? And do you think that it is still relevant today, is it still happening both here also and in India or Africa or places like? Yes, it is still going on. I would say it is still going on seventy percent. There is thirty percent that doesn't care, every body is saying but it is still going on and I think it's a shame because specially for the youngsters who want to integrate into marriage and what have you and the caste system is a barrier basically and also I feel religion wise, it is so difficult with may be the Hindus, the Muslims, the Sikhs, the Christians. Still there is a lot of barriers, I mean I feel sorry for people who fallen in love with some body outside their religion basically and they can't marry and stuff but unfortunately that still goes on. And has that ever affected your family? How much? Well, no we haven't come across any thing like that in our family. It was most of my sisters were married in our own caste. I am married in my own caste as well. Were they arrange marriages or like semi arranged? Most of them. Mine was not arranged and my older sister's one older than me hers wasn't arranged and basically we have not had that problem. But I think life would be a bit different if I had, had a choice of marrying somebody I want myself may be I have would have married somebody totally different, but because I was brought up to believe I had to marry somebody in my own community would bring shame on my parents and same thing goes with divorce as well. No matter how much you want to get divorced, you wouldn't get divorce because the shame would bring on the family or may be, because of mom and dad. Maybe if mom and dad were not alive then may be I could not, I would not think of it in that way and I think a lot of people in they would, people would think the same way as I do as well. Okay. It's difficult. Yeah. It's very difficult. Yeah, because it is kind of a engraved in the family regard this as well. Yeah. And another issue that comes out a lot is, I mean youth and do you feel that the youth today that they are more or less religious then say when you were young or just different, how do you? I used to think, well I think the youths are getting more religious now. Wonderful, like I have said earlier that when I went to India oh gosh I was absolutely shocked that some of the youths that came from here and I mean twenty, twenty five year olds, typical example, we were driving along in the car and the driver is playing some film songs and some, the kids are, the, I call them kids because I am older, the boys and girls that were with us varying from twenty to twenty-seven they are saying, oh I wish they had some interesting music so I am saying okay don't worry about it, next port I will call I will ring up my friend Yogesh and tell him to get us some CDs of nice new Indian films and they are saying we don't want Indian films we want religious songs and I am saying wow and there was. Neither in a car in India. And I thought, I mean the car in India had a DVD player. Oh my gosh. We were watching films, now they were talking and I thought wow and these boys wanted to sing religious songs and they are religious here. They are in Leicester and I was totally amazed that they devote so much time to religion and I think lot of youngsters are heading that way and we have lots of saints coming and giving all this lectures and stuff and even the younger generation are getting into religion now. There is the extreme as well that do not want to follow the religion they will question the religion and say why do we do this why do we do that I am not doing it but you get this in every community don't you. Absolutely. Do you think it's important for the youth to learn their mother tongue? Yes, I think its very, very important for the youth to learn their mother tongue because other wise their language would be totally forgotten because there are some languages that were spoken, hundred years of ago that are not spoken any more and they will be extinct so its important, just from a basic point of that language doesn't die just carry on, they should know there mother tongue. Okay, and just couple of final questions now to round it off. How do you identify yourself now because, in Hindu background and you were born in Africa, you got strong roots in India and lived in the U.K for most of your life, if some body is to ask you who are you? What do you say? Difficult question like on the forms they ask you what's your nationality and we used to put down British but now they say are you Hindu, are you Muslim, are you Pakistani and I was arguing with somebody filling the forms one day and I said why do you need to know whether you are Hindu, Muslim or Pakistani you are basically trying to segregate us. Why? And to me I would say I am a human being and despite my color creed whatever I am basically a human being my nationality because I am British passport they say, I am a British citizen and I am Hindu by birth I was born a Hindu and that is never ever going to be wiped out basically so if you ask me what I mean I would say I am ordinary normal human being. Okay and where do you see as home? I used to say home was I used to say back home always when we are talking I would say back home and then, a few years, a couple of, after done Reiki I thought to myself what is home why do we say back home we were born there and sometimes I think that is really unfair because we have all come here and we made this our home and the phrase comes to me is, the home where your heart is basically so now I would say home is wherever where is home? And finally then do you have any message to give to people who would be listening to this I mean in the future give me a message about life or any thing you wish just to round off the interview. My message to anybody who is listens to this is just basically be true to yourself be true to people if you can not help other people do not harm them as much as you can try and help people give them love give them love give them lot of understanding and you will go a long way. Okay, thank you very much. That's okay lovely.