Involvement in Politics, Hinduism 14th March, 2004 sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview Abhijeet Joshi 127 Purnima Chavda Female 47 Mombasa

Loughborough U.K. C.P.E. EN Gujarati, Hindi, English I wanted to start off the interview with your family background and specifically if you could maybe tell me where are your parents from, your mother and father, if you know towns, villages where they came from. My parents, my great parents they are from Porbandar in India and you know he went to Africa when there was no work in India for him. So how long ago was that then do you think? Think before we were born. So maybe the. 50's. 50's maybe. 50's yeah. So then he moved from India then? Yeah. And so what was his profession at that time? My grandfather's profession was Supervising Building Contractors. And then when he moved to Africa was he, was that his job in India as well or did he carry on the same? No our, the Chavda, not Chavda but let, this is where my family, that's what they used to work as. Yeah. Okay. And then your father then, where was he born? He was born in Africa, Mombasa. In Mombasa. And your mother? Same place, Mombasa. Both in Mombasa. Did your father then carry on your grandfather's trade or did he? No. My father worked as a Clerical Office you know working in office but Shipping Clerk. Okay. And did your mother work or? My mother did work, because at one point we were very you know we came to a point where it was very difficult for them to look after us. So she did go to work in a Coffee Factory. And the wages were like they said if she goes to work then she just gets paid for that day. It wasn't something you get paid regularly. Okay just for exactly what you do you just get? Yeah. Same thing with my grandfather. So sometimes when there was work and so we get to eat and if there was no work for two days, three days we had peanuts. So it was? Literally peanuts. Hard times? Yeah. So we had to survive on peanuts. And what about, was there extended family around you or? Yes, yeah. We are six brothers and sisters. You yourself have six? Six brothers and sisters. My uncle four daughters, my aunty - my father's sister, my grandparents, we were all together. And was it difficult for then for everybody? At times, yeah. But at times it was okay. Okay. What was it like for you then for you? You said you had six brothers and? Yeah. And sisters. Where do you come in? I am a second child. You are the second one. So you are kind of older? My father is eldest son of my grandmother, eldest. So that's in tradition it's there, she lives with eldest and not with the youngest so. Okay. So your grandmother lived with you? Yeah. Yeah. What was it like then for you? What are your memories of growing up in Mombasa every, any memories that you have that you'd like to share? What at, we used to live in a very old town and that wasn't very good there. How, when you say it wasn't very good, why wasn't it? What was it about? Like every now and then shopkeepers and you know people come around for money. And when we were going to school we have, we were sponsored by other people in. Somebody come and sponsor either me or my sister. So once it's my sister's turn, my turn and we never had any proper things for ourselves. Sometimes we go to school without shoes and we have no ribbons and then we you know. Yeah. Just had whatever came. Yeah. We never had anything like some other children had at break times they have things to eat for, even popcorns or small thing, biscuits, we never had and even if we had chocolate that was very rare. There was very luxury for us. And the most luxurious thing we had at times was bread and butter and jam, Sundays. I mean you know like that was. As a treat. Treat yeah. Okay. And what about, what were things like for you just socially then you know with your friends, what was there to do in the area? In the area there was. What would you do? Yeah there was mango tree and there was an old toilet, like a building and as you know young friends, small friend what we used to do, one person goes and steal, takes salt from the house, one takes chilli, salt, eno, we mix that and make ourself, something like a sweet, not sweets but something that you know if you put in your mouth It fizzes. It pops. Yeah fizzes. Yeah. And we get, we break mangoes, we help ourselves with mangoes and then we hide ourselves on the top of this building, climb there. Yeah. Sit there and eat that. And sometimes if other people, if somebody is having any ceremonies in the house because we were little, we were asked to go and bring flowers so we go and. Sometimes we ask people that can we have flowers from your garden? Sometimes we just help ourselves and in a fear not to get caught. Yeah. You'd run. And sometimes we used to go and get bubbles from the field, next door's field and you know but we always carry couple of Chapattis with us. If we get caught we give this Chapattis. Okay. Just to get. But it wasn't for us. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes we used to go, you know when they having seasons of chillies, taking the tops of chillies, making Papadam, putting the Papad to dry and all that. We used to go and do that for you know neighbourhood, so we were not naughty all the time but. Yeah. You know doing that and in return we used to get half a glass of milk and something to eat. Okay. So we were very popular. Yeah. Okay you were known. Yeah. So you were, you said, you mentioned about your school and you weren't able to go regularly. Yeah we were going regularly but. Yeah. You know like we were not. Yeah. Sponsored all the time. So how far then did you go because you said before that you went to as far as as your, as you left school when you were Twelve? Twelve yeah. That's it. Okay. And then so how far did you get then once you are twelve? Did you do any exams at that point or? Yeah Central, it was called C.P.E., Primary school. Okay. That's all. And at that point I was about twelve and this was in 1969. Okay. And you know just before the exodus, just little bit after that. Okay. Exodus happened and at this point my uncle was already in England. Exodus happened in 1965. That's when the Africanization. Yeah. Started? And my father he didn't have a Kenyan passport so he was not allowed to work. He had to get a permit? No he was not allowed to work, that's it. That's it. Okay. So then and at that point I had you know like to even pay the rent How did you feel then because its suddenly very grown up isn't it? You were only twelve; you have to leave school and work or. Well for some reason you know like I wanted to work and my sister wanted to study. Because I wanted to work my sister had to work as well. Okay. And that worked very well with family that we were both work, summer time we were working and we never went back to. Go back to school. School. But I mean I was quite happy to work. Yeah. It was you know something different. Yeah. I mean I can't remember that how good I was at school. Just got out from there. Yeah. What about community wise, how were things in your area you know for like religious festivals or you know was there a temple that your family would visit? Yeah we used to go Theosophical Society there. We used to perform there once a month. Okay. What would you perform? We either song or a dance or things we took part in that because my aunty was so much interested in dressing us up. So I have been Krishna few times, I have been fisherman's wife you know dressed up. And you know she teaches us you have to do this so we just go and do it even if its wrong sometime but we do it and we used to stand up in front of everybody and sing. What kind of song like? Religious songs. Religious songs? Yeah. It was a Theosophical Society where you know it's about all the religions. So who else would come there? My father's colleagues I suppose. I mean I can't remember all that. Okay. Yeah. But. And was there a temple there also or was that I mean a place? Yeah. We were a part of, we used to go to temple, we also used to go to Sunday school where we learned some of, but we did, we couldn't go for as long as we would have liked to because I was working so. Yeah. Okay I want to move a little bit forward now just to start asking questions about when and why then you moved to the U.K. and the logistics of all who came first or you know did the whole family come together or. We all came at the same time, all six of us and. No the whole family, my grandparents were left behind I think, they were left behind. Did they come later or? Later. They came later. Okay. So? We came first. So what year did you come like? '70. 1970? Just end of '70, yeah. And what was the, what was it like in Kenya that time then leading up to, you know there was a up, probably a lot of conflict maybe at that time or you know? Yeah at that time it was that if, I think my father was worried about that we might, he might have to marry us off with Africans and you know. Okay. I don't know. You know like we didn't, he didn't have a job and somebody cheated on him. He paid the rent to the person and the person didn't take the rent and he was in lot of debts and things like that happened. Somebody cheated on my grandfather as well. We had a lot of money, you know we were better offs from old town we went to new town and there was money in you know in big tins, you know like no banks but. Yeah. And he built it up, big hotel there. He you know with his money and it was on the word that he would pay all the money. The person who asked and when it was finished he said it's nothing. He hasn't paid it? No. So everything, my grandmother had to sell all her jewellery and everything to survive. So you know we lost. It's up and down. Yeah. Okay so can you actually, how old were you when you came, fifteen or? Yeah. Yeah. So you can maybe remember quite a bit then of the actual, what were your thoughts before you came here? You know going to the U.K. Well my uncle was here and he sort of said that things get frozen in pipes; you know water gets frozen and people don't talk in Gujarati, we have to talk in English and like. It was scary. Because I mean I used to speak in English with the customers there but not this, not fluent. Yeah. And what was the, can you remember the actual day then when you all packed up to leave and? Did you fly here yeah? Yes. And arriving in the U.K. what are your memories from then? At that time there was Postal Strike, which went on for three months. Okay. And the person was going to come and receive us at the Airport didn't get the letter so we spent a night in the Airport. In Heathrow? Next morning, yeah, and there was somebody with us whose, one of my uncle came but he didn't knew that we were there as well so he could have taken us as well. Yeah. He came to get somebody else? Yeah. Yeah. And he took them and not us. Okay. As well as. I'll pause. Excuse me. Okay. Sorry. Here you go. Okay. Yeah so you had stayed in the Airport overnight and then how did you get in touch with your uncle to come back and get you then? Phone. Yeah. You all had to get hold of him. Yeah. And where did they live then at that time? Did they live in Leicester or London? No London. They lived in London. And they were living in flats so at that time we were not allowed too many people in a flat so then we splitted. Four of, we were six, eight of us so four of us stayed there and I mean for me it was exciting. We stayed at uncle's house and my elder sister, my father, mother and myself, we stayed at somebody else's house. And my father, the, rented place they said that children are not allowed. So he said that we were his sisters and we stayed there you know like that for few months. Okay. And then after we settled then my brothers and other brothers and sisters joined. What were your here, initial thoughts then of London? What time of the year did you come you said, summer or winter? January. January. It was cold. Yeah it was cold. And what did you think of you know driving through London city or the suburbs or, what did you think of the place? That was first time in our, my life that we came out so it was exciting. You weren't? We were, it was like when we were children, it was going to school and come home and when we were going to work it was going to work and come home. And we have not seen any other things. So it was just all exciting. Just exciting. Regardless, it was just good. Yeah and we started working in Plastic Factory. Who you and your sister or the whole? All four of us. Okay. Somebody you know managed to get us in, even though I was under age at that time, didn't tell them the age. So where was this then? Stuart Plastic in London. When it'll come I'll tell you. Okay. Norbury. New? Norbury. Norbury. I don't know. When it comes and like after one year they found out that we were under age. But our work was good so they kept us. So what you have to be over sixteen to work? Yeah. Okay. But by that time you know we were so good and we were popular as well, both of my sister and myself. We were not just doing our work, we were helping others as well. Were there many other Asians in the area? Yes there was. Yeah. And they were working in the factory? Yeah. My mom couldn't even speak English but yeah, I didn't mention about that. My mom when she was working Coffee Factory, she, in Africa, but she is allergic to Coffee. Oh no. So she came up with sports and so then she stopped going How long did she stay there? Few days. Just a few days. Okay. Because we couldn't afford her to be ill. Yeah, absolutely. And here in the Plastic Factory she was just sitting on the Conveyer Belt, she just sits and all the, smartest tops, you know the tops, se just have to check that they are right. Good ones go and they take the bd ones out and just. That's all she had to do. Yeah. So she was quite. She was happy. Happy there and we were happy because in Africa I used to go to work at eight in the morning to one and go back to 2 o'clock, till eight in the evening. And here we finished at half past four. Okay. So it was. You get the rest of the day. And then we getting to eating biscuits and chocolates you know endless, so that was exciting. It was good. Yeah. And no Saturday-Sunday work. This was seven days a week in Africa so. So it was. It was exciting yeah. Quite nice for you then. Yeah. And then how long did you stay there for then in that factory? '70, '72, '73. For three years? And then after that did you move? I tried to get to work in the next factory, which was Phillips Television and I did pass my IQ test and all that. You know like then it was coming to age as well. But I didn't get through first time so I did manage to get that eventually you know second time. We have to go through lots of tests to work on the television, components and all that, electronics side and I was engaged in '73 with Ashok. He was working there. In the Phillips? Yeah. Okay. And '74 we got married. Was that arranged marriage or? Yes. Well yes. Semi-arranged? Semi-arranged. Okay. So you had met then obviously before. He, his family wasn't here. Just his elder brother and he had nobody else to go to so he used to just come in the house all time which I hated because I used to just read books when he was around. Okay. Why? You've been shy? No, I mean he used to, he used to go out with my sister. Okay. So everybody thought my sister would get married to him. It was, I don't know, my uncle just said that he will give you three things roof, food and clothes and I had few days to answer. I went to see few other boys but I didn't like them. They didn't come into my, you know what my thoughts were or what I was looking for at that time. At that time, okay. Like someone wasn't smoking who was vegetarian. You wanted all this. Good qualities. So where you, I, show me the pictures of your wedding, where you get married? In London. In a temple or? In a Church. In a Church. Well you had the Indian? Indian Wedding in the Church? Yeah. Okay. Church Hall. Alright Church Hall. And the registry wedding we just went to have a picture taken. We hide the clothes and that Church is no longer there because it's been demolished. Because my aunty got married there and at that time there were no things so you know four poles and all that, we made that over, we literally made it. Did everything. Okay. And what about just getting, were there shops or did they? No They cost, you know getting a nice Saree or the things. No they were not. How did you? I mean I was working in the Saree shop when I, in Africa so when we left, because they liked our work and all that so my boss said you can choose whatever you like from the whole shop, seven pieces. Okay. And he also gave us a Pound, one Pound. All right Which helped when we were here to phone. From the Airport. Okay. Which was quite handy and that shop at the moment is in Wembley. Okay. So they came? They came here as well. Yeah. So that's where you got your wedding material? No. From there? No. Okay. I don't know I mean. It just came. Wedding things, when I didn't get everything what I wanted because I was second, I felt that, I was second child and my father didn't really wanted to do things and he wanted to get married first and my elder sister was still not married and like he thought I'd run away with somebody so he was, anybody who came at the front door. You were a bit of a wild child. Yeah. He is worried. Yeah. So it was, his thought was that anybody who comes on the door first, he will marry me. So after you got married then where did you live? Did you still--? No I was still, we were staying at rented house with the family, three other families. It wasn't very comfortable. We were there for three months. Okay. Was still working in Phillips. I didn't have to cook at that time because that time I went to work you know couldn't do work and never learned to cook. So how did you learn? He taught me half of it and I just picked things up. And now I can cook for hundred people, if I have to. So then when did you get a place of your own? His brother wanted to move, he was working Fisons here, the elder brother and he said that if you leave the work here and come down here, that my father-in-law offered us money to buy the house in Leicester. This is just after marriage. And I wasn't happy to come to Leicester. Then came to compromise to come to Loughborough. Okay. But then we didn't get the money. The deal was only we get the money only if we came to Leicester. So. Okay. Why didn't you want to go to Leicester? Politics of our community and what happens I am not happy, even now I speak up people like it or not, I speak up. Which community is that? Rajput. Okay. And my father-in-law he was, back home he was a you know big guy there. In Mombasa? Yeah. And my uncle was involved and you know it's a family thing and then like we are not allowed to speak up because I am a daughter-in-law, we are not allowed to. Speak up. But I, you know I respected him but I still spoke up for my rights. Not rights but if I don't like something I just speak up and for that people don't like you. That's too bad. So I mean, I didn't. I had another opportunity to do that as well. I was of, my father-in-law said that I will give you money if you work in a shop. I said. I suppose to a factory. Was that what he meant or? No it was, yeah, well I don't know they have a shop and pay certain 'x' amount of money and he had enough money but I didn't accept that. So I knew how, if you work in a shop how much involvement that was. And I lost. So then he said he wasn't, and he, Ashok being second child he didn't wanted to give it to, anything to him either. So we started from scratch with our own effort. I mean I was, I am quite happy. Yeah. And then where did you first move to then? You moved to Loughborough? We, first we came and we stayed in Bed and Breakfast for a week and then found a rented place and there were seven of us in there, Ashok's family. Two of us and Ashok's family and because like, because I was the first person married in my side of family and his side. I was under eighteen at this point and his sister came over, Ashok's sister, was much older like because we were married, she was our responsibility and other sister and a brother and there was seven like. You had to look after them all? Yeah. I married her off as well. I organized this at age of eighteen. And how old were they then twenties? Older. Older, okay. You know like in our custom we have to do it because. Get married. I was only eighteen and I organized the wedding. I had to go and do all the dealings with in-laws and all that. Didn't have idea, I managed. Very responsible. Yeah. For eighteen you have lots. Yeah. I was the first youngest person. You know we tie this when we marry off our daughter, so she was my daughter. Okay. Marrying her off, the youngest person, I saved money up. We were working forty hours a week and I saved all the money to go towards, I was pregnant, to go, the money to go towards the pregnancy ceremony but my daughter, I lost the, I had a miscarriage so then we spent all that money in the wedding. And then there was another sister-in-law and a brother-in-law and you know all that. And then moving the house. How many times did you move then before you ended up here? Six. Oh you've got the thing there. Six times. Six times. All in Loughborough? All in Loughborough yes. I said and, this was a rented place and then father-in-law gave us, he didn't because we didn't agree with the deal so we didn't get the name on. You want to pause it? No it's okay. Okay. You know he gave the money to my, Ashok's elder brother, to buy house. This is a rented place. Yeah. And then Queens Road, but we were paying all the mortagages and everything, half-half. And yet you know we stayed there for three years and we came out with nothing. We just walked out from there. Then we went to another rented place because there were lots of things not right that I, you know little bits and argument and I couldn't stand the arguments. Every time there were two sisters, even two sisters, nothing to do with two sisters had an argument, I used to walk out of the room. Yeah. It's not peaceful. No. So then with, I was pregnant 3rd, 4th time this time. And I lost three babies. This was 4th time and Ashok had a lovely friend and he said, persuaded, you know like you'd be better off if you go somewhere else and all that, so we moved up. We just literally, it was, we built this place and we just walked out with nothing, literally nothing. We started everything again and then from there we got Council flat, Council house and we stayed there for two-three years and then we moved from there, we bought a house. We saved some money, 1,000 Pound and bought a house. Was it this place? No. No. The other house. The other, okay. And then we sold that house and bought this house. And you've been here then ever since. Yeah. Okay. Fifteen years now we've been. So your family's grown up. Yeah. What was it like at that time but socially for yourself I mean you are working and then you were married and you had so much responsibility, what did you do, you know did you have friends or how did you make friends in your area or how did you get, did you get involved with maybe some other community things at that time? Was there any, what was happening in the area at that time? I always took part in religious things. Was there a temple here? Sai Baba I think and we, I learnt quite a lot of things from there. This is weekends and for some things that some priest said that things, I don't know, something went in my head that I wasn't supposed to stay at home in the evenings so I always went out to do evening classes. Okay. Every evening. Impossible. So that's where I picked up all my little creative things doing this, bits here bits there and organized the children a little, organized things. Mum's and toddlers group start with, just mum's group. There were no videos at that time. People didn't have videos. We wanted to watch film so we used to hire a video in one corner, one place; we all get together just to watch video. Okay. And somebody looks up the kids, things like that, socially like and then everybody had a video so that wasn't, then we done knitting group, we basically knit. So where, is this how it all started then? Yeah. Yeah. When was this? '70s. Early '70s. Yeah. No '75 - 76 sorry. And then I organized, I was working as a Medical Receptionist. When I signed the wedding thing that, registration, I didn't like what I signed and I signed my marriage certificate. What I saw I didn't like so the thing was kept bugging me, I had to change that. Okay so you got the new name so you didn't like the way you actually signed it? No it says 'Beka'. All right, okay. Just your name. I was sales girl and my title was 'Beka' and that no, that's not good. I want to change it so then I did sales girls again you know, worked in Tescos, old Tescos and little bit here, little bit there and there was a job going for, my English wasn't good but my Gujarati was and I was good with people and there was a job at, Medical Receptionist. I wasn't good with phones but. You just went there. Yeah. And I worked there for ten years, part-time. Where was this? Shakespeare Street. Okay. In Loughborough? Yeah. So I was working there part-time three hours a week, three hours a day, five days and part-time I was organizing play group and working for the playgroups. And your mom as well? Yeah. So that kept me busy. And the family members also helped me organizing things. So how did you, how you progressed? I mean you started off doing a lot of, you know, community work, social work, you know quite some. Yeah. Time ago, so can you tell me a little bit then how you developed that you know. Yeah. Where you are at present? I mean like working at Medical, as a Medical Receptionist, talking to people who just come from Bangladesh, India, Africa, wherever, telling them "Oh you can get you know, you don't have to pay for your medication you know, this, how you do this, how you fill your forms up." Even though I am not, I wasn't that good but I was, I mean helping them after my, whatever I could help them with and people, I had lot of support from public as well. And I was nominated few times. Once I was nominated through the Sunday school, I also organized a Sunday school. Where in the temple or? In one of the Community Centers. I was nominated to go to India and do, be a participant as a lecturer, Guru. Okay. Students you know, Bal Vikas Guru, means teacher for the youngsters to teach spiritual, Sai Baba, Satya Sai Baba. Okay yeah. So I was nominated and I went there for six weeks. Where did you go? Puttaparthi for six weeks. Okay. That was bit of a challenge as well. At that time I didn't even have a passport. When we came, we came in mother's passport. Parent's passports, yeah. But then there was challenge with Ashok as well, he said he wouldn't live without me and I said you know, I can. And I said you don't write to me, I will write to you for six weeks. Yeah. But I had good time. And what else then? Tell me a little bit more about all the other projects that you've been involved in, the diversity of things that you've been involved in over the years. Like there are so many things happened, you know I was growing up and this thing in my head was still there that I was in a luck, you know if I kept, to be in the family it was a bit disturbing so I had to be out of that and do things that I take me somewhere else, so that's why I was busy doing other things so I am not involved here. I don't like people arguing. Even if it's nothing do with me so I kept away from, there was lot of you know so many people in the house, there was always argument. Just to get. So, and I kept on doing different things. I was never steady on one thing. Kept on learning different things. And we were not talking as much because I wasn't there. I was always busy either with children or with other things and we were not communicating as much and he was communicating with my sister-in-law quite a lot and then but you know what's going on here, so I want to know. And then my sister-in-law was learning Electronics. This is in eighties, there was something to get ladies into Electronic side. This was in Leeds. She was in Leeds? My sister in Leeds, my brother's wife. And I have gotten place there, I went there. My daughter was three at that time so I was there. Come home weekend, go there traveling for one year. Once I come and some times he used to come, you know like that. He used to look after two children and I had one. My mom used to look after my daughter while I went to college and I did Electronics. And then I carried on doing Electronics. And while all this was happening I also started up Gujarati classes. Voluntary work. So to teach? To teach Gujarati. To the children? Yeah. And not only that, we used to try, go there collect children, take them, teach them, take them back. We had a Van. So, you did every thing. But I am not that confident now with driving but used to be. So when did you learn to drive? When my daughter was two I think. It took me a while to drive but I got there. You got that eventually. This, one of the community lady, she inspirit, she was sixty and she inspired me that if she can do it at the age of sixty. She also had this eye operation. She nearly got blind at one point and if she can do it I can do it, so I kept on. So you got eventually. I wanted, you have told me quite a bit about you know the work that you have done, the reason what, behind. Yeah. And I also get even now recently five years back we keep on getting nomination. Everybody pushes me, I am also been in politics myself just to find out what is happening which I didn't like what I saw. How did you get involved in politics like to what extent? In committee center as a committee member. I didn't like what I saw and I couldn't believe that people do this things so my husband says you go in and see what's happening so that's how I went and some of the politician used to come at, come to house, knock on the door, can you come and vote me and I said, you know like if I want to stand in the committee I don't need to go and knock on the people's door. I just have to stand there and I just get votes and I get more votes than you but it was a challenge. Yeah. And I was right as well. Yeah. I mean I knew Yeah. Because the way I worked with public They just liked to you, you didn't need to campaign for the confidence. Yeah. No. I never did campaign. Even now I get nominations and for project till when this things was happening and the necessary was only for one person nominating me you know it had to become through a nomination, but four people nominated, four different groups nominated. I wasn't even aware of that. It just. It just happened. Yeah. Even now these things come through nominations. How did you get so involved with them, your art work as well, how did that come back? I, like evening classes and I picked things up and if people do things and I look at it and I feel that I can do this and I go and try and do it and, went to India, done a little bit of training. I had a family of six, not family but group of six people who stayed, I looked after them, well we did. We sponsored them to come here. We looked after them here and we know we picked things up from there, from them. And while I was in India I did some training with them there, working with children you know, under the tree and railway stations and. Yeah. So you know I got more and more involved with the arts and then I just kept that. So you just involved with everything equally then? Yeah. Okay. I just, I want to move on then and ask you some questions about religious and spiritual side of your life because we have got kind of a good understanding of your history and what you do. What would you say would be kind of family traditions that have come down, the line with you. This is in regard to rituals or to puja's or Murti's that are worshipped, what, is there, has there been anything that has come through the family that's just kind of accepted that this is what happens or have things changed over the years? When I was little, my father brought Sai Baba's photo in the house and it got thrown out, my grandmother's. Okay. And then she got involved in it you know, she had, you don't accept something because you have, and so I have seen that. I personally went to Sai Baba, I met him, I had an interview, all that. But I just see, for me its Krishna inside me and I just see Krishna everywhere. Okay. So for me because I've been Krishna myself you know dressed up as Krishna. In drama. Taken, yeah, so that's how I've seen. But I've not read Gita at all, I have not opened Gita and read. So but do you? No, not because I don't want to do. Yeah. But I have always sort of done these things that I can do it but if others can I will look after their children and let others do. But every time something comes up some people say something even Mantras and Shloks and I know it don't from where but it comes. Okay. So sometimes even high people about these things. What are they talking I, I already know this. Yeah. You know. But from where? From where? Yeah. I don't know. But it's all there. Yeah, I mean this is my, that's how I feel and doing Reiki and you know doing spiritual things and. Yeah. When I was very little I used to say things and it happens, when I was twelve, you know I remember this little bit that, that if I said something it happened and now I have come to a point that if I need something I don't have to ask. You just get it! I just get it. And I have seen Krishna twice. All right! I have experienced him. Could you tell me about that? Or is it personal? No, no it's not personal. One day after ten days of hard you know working in this big camp, voluntary service we were coming home, one Sunday, we were coming home with the car was loaded with all my arts things, children were little. It was getting late as well and we were coming home and the car broke in the, something happened in the car. Ashok was putting petrol in the car to come and this is in London and the petrol was all going on the floor. Okay. Somebody was watching that and didn't say, something was broken in the car and from no where somebody came. He had exactly what we needed. To fix that? To fix it you, I can see you how you are feeling. And then like you know I had biscuits and things in the car so I just turned around and I said how come this person you know, you have a question. And he, he was talking you know everything and then he said my garage is just round the corner just there, he gave me, he gave us the address as well of the garage. But then I said okay let me give you something for helping so we turned around about ten-fifteen pounds worth of petrol was already gone. Yeah. On the floor if somebody lit it, it would have. Gone up. Yeah, but you know like then we parked the car and then he brings a. He said "Oh! What's the problem, yeah I have got". He didn't even see anything, he just went and brought the stuff. So I turned around, turned back and the person was gone. Just disappeared. And then but we talked to him. Yeah. And he gave us the address as well so I said I am not going to live this. "lets go and look for the address that he has given, lets look for the place. We went there, there's no place. No but it was Krishna. Well, yeah. Look even by talking to you, you know I can feel him and he's, he has been there with me every time. I have been through lot of operations and lots of things and you know like he has been there holding my hand. He is everything for me. I don't do things for him enough. I mean now I don't feel that I need to physically do things for him. What you mean like do practices, rituals? Poojas yeah. Poojas? I don't need, I don't feel before when we going through bad, patch I was feeling Oh! He doesn't let me go in to the temple room to do things and I wanted to but now I don't feel that I need to, you know its changed and he has changed a lot. Specially after Reiki. You find that it helps. Yeah, because it's a universal energy and everything you know its like we enjoy everything and we thank for everything as well all the time not just one day you know one point or something. And what are the, what are the beliefs then, beliefs or morals, or values or whatever you want to call it, what are the, what you then live your life by with regard to Hinduism, what aspects have you taken from that you, that you use you know in the everyday life? Just energy, mainly its energy. Universal energy, it's a universal things its not you know what I believe that a mountain and people want to get to the top and there so many ways to go, so many methods to go so you know if its Muslim or Christian or whatever there's the same. Different process, Yeah. To the same head. And do you believe in things like karma or the reincarnation and things like that? Yeah. And then how do they then affect your daily life because I mean you do good things, you do, you know bad thing, are you aware of that when you are, when you are doing them or do good things any way? Yeah, we do good things and then we get, we ask when I, when I, sought of within myself and praying then I sort of pray that if I do anything bad I would like to be punished, you know I don't know how to explain that. But at the same point, same time. And but like I don't sit, even sit and think of anything bad for other people and even, even, even like doing working on Reiki and things even some people who are doing things against us. We still love them and send them love. So like you say that if we still we get hurt or something then that's karma in the past which we have to go through. You know you have small accident then accept the accident whatever happens to me and then I even thank to God that its, this is I got away with smaller punishment then or may be there was something big coming and I got small because I am good. Yeah, Okay, How did you go, how will you yourself personally, how do you go about passing on these ideas and values and to your children? I have done my best with children but they have their own minds and I suppose I have forgiven them for that, I mean, I wasn't happy when my daughter married English person because like we would like to keep it equal. I felt bad at times but I did the whole, full ceremony in Indian way. And they, they got on with it. Yeah, so I mean I have done my bit now they are individual because I have always fought with my father that I am an individual, I am "Aap", myself "Aapkarmi" not "Baapkarmi" you know what I am saying. So if I stood up for that you know I will let them. At I mean, at times it was painful but I have gone over that I am, I'm feeling hurt now. What about in, in general then do you think that the youth of today that they are more or less religious than the, than may be your generation or? No they are, they religious. Yeah, do you think its changed or? It has changed. How so? I think its us who missed out. I feel, I, I, I missed out quite of. How, how do you feel that you missed out? Because at that time it wasn't you know forced into us, they expected us to be but we were not given any tuition or you know anything wasn't offered. They just expected and just get on? Yeah, something with marriage. I was eighteen and we were not told anything and we were not allowed to you know even to talk about that thing. We have not been to school so I didn't knew even periods time you know, I did what was going to happen, I mean I didn't knew it what it was when it came. But it was no discussion? No. So you that's changed then for the better now a days that there is more open discussions of that thing or so? I mean they are prepared then, don't know how good that is but. I want to ask you just some general questions now, where's the, what about, this is also to do with you know then and now and how things have changed. The caste system and how is it may be it effected you and, and how, how important is it to families today? That has changed quite a bit, I mean its not that it didn't used to happen, it was pushed on to the carpet, it was happening. One of the reason I went to India was to change one of these things and because my grandfather couldn't speak up, well he you know like, he wasn't allowed to speak up and saw me the strength, my strength as would stand up in front of anybody and talk. You know the right thing so he gave me before died, he gave me the permission. Literally he said you know, you, have to play candidate to talk about this go, you go to India and sought this problem out. This was, this was between two villages one girl ran away with a boy and these two don't have any connection, these two villages don't have any connections, and we were not, we were not allowed to take girl for you know for the hand, marriage, if we did we had to pay fine. This was in India sitting here we still have to pay fines and we have done that, because my father did pay a fine. You know these two villages are known about, so I went to the you know where I have talked about. That is what I did, stopped them. So stopped them fining? This was fifty years back story. Okay, yeah. And they have been going on following and I, I went to put an end to it and I threatened them, if they didn't what I would do. And what it was the threat? And I would open up the story. Yeah. Because they were not going let go off something that they carried away for, it was a gold mine for them. I mean we have got these sort of. We have got one sister in-law who is from that village, this is I am talking about two different villages, we have got a daughter from that village and one of my sister has gone into that village. You know marriage wise. Yeah. So we had to pay fine on both the, on both, I am saying that when I was fine it was hundred pound at that time, it was a lot of money. And who gets that money, the family? People in India. No community in India. The community. You know what they do with this? Yeah! And, and this is not just from us, I went to fight that what happens if people in India were did that. Okay we can pay fine, we can't but we did. Yeah. So what do you do with this, it's for the, you know candles. I said how many candles do you lit you know I, I just. Yeah. I restrict them from and which my grandfather couldn't do that and he gave me this. He gave you the? Permission! And I did it, but people, my in-laws here they threatened me that if I did this and went there and I have to do this and that. I am not allowed to kind of do this and try to stop me but you have to do this and you have to do, I said I have, I am prepared to go through all the way and did that not just in one village, I went to three-four villages and. And they assorted that. Yeah. So I am happy and grand say, I mean, I was very close to my grand father, which my children missed out on grandfather's love and there own grandfather. Because he, my grandfather, my children grandfather already arranged his wedding with somebody else and he said he wanted to marry me. So this you know complications have. Okay. No. Issues. Sorry. Issues. Issues, yeah. But you know now, now I am happy with grandfather if I want I can talk to him, even now I just. I have let him go but, because we were close it, it was difficult for me to let him go. Okay, How do you think things have changed then over the years, since you have been England, how, how are they changed for the Hindu community. These children, these days they have been exposed to lots of, they get opportunities to learn things and, and a lot of religious people come down and youngsters take part in it, which is good. So it's a change for the better. Changed, yeah. But then there are a few percentage of who are on the wrong tracks, which you know we can't do anything about. It's probably their karma, look at it like that. Okay, it makes people happier. A couple of just final questions then. How, how do you identify yourself now because you got a strong you know Indian heritage, where you were born you know your family was born in Africa, yeah, and you have lived in U.K. for a long time and your family were born in the U.K. there's a lot of things going on there so, you know for somebody to say who are you? There is also the religious side also, as well so what would you say? In religious form or? Any, any way what would be your, your main thing, that's important to you to say. I am Hindu and I am proud to be Hindu. Like I was fall in love with Muslim guy but I didn't marry him, that was love and I just. The love is still there but, you know like, I am proud of what I am. I was, I was given a choice within myself and I chose to be where I am and I am happy. Okay, and where do you see as home? Home? Yeah. Here. Leicester I love Leicester. Loughborough yeah. Loughborough. Loughborough. Okay, have you, you said, you have been to India, have been back to Africa again since then? Yes. How, what is like for you going back? When I went last time, only last year we went but that was his place, but when my father-in-law and mother-in-law, when she was going blind first time to take the children and I stayed with them for three months. It was different, I went to see my old school and my old place and like I do. Yeah. And you know things, it wasn't that comfortable because we were not allowed to go on our own. There was always escort with us. Yeah. It was scary. Really. Yeah, because you know, people there are you know like here, I mean it's, it's just as bad here. Show you knife and, or take your things of you, I mean I had my necklace snatched off me. Where in, in? In Mombasa. Mombasa. You know it's, it's not safe and that I have, I have seen somebody I was sitting on a bus and I saw somebody taking somebody's hand off and put in briefcase and off, with the blood running you know what I mean it's not safe. Even now, when I, last year I went to Africa Dar es salaam, that's first time I went there, it was alright but not comfortable. It's okay. Now that you are aware that there is some sort of edge there or something like that. As long as you are in, in a group and with, but I have been there on my own as well, I was sort of, I was going through bad health problem and I was scared so and all I want to do is just go away, so I just packed my bags and like this, I just packed my bags get a passport and ticket and off. I went on my own, with a friend. With a lady friend, we, two of us went away for two weeks. To Darussalam? No, Mombasa. Mombasa okay. So we just went and. On holiday. Yeah, but it was not like, it was okay but it wasn't comfortable. Okay, then what was like going to India then as well, because I mean, I guess you would have heard so much about going there and you know stories of your old country for, you know where your family is from, so was it like going there again then for the first time? India was good because I have been there about three-four times now. When we went, Ashok when, when he came he had a shock because for him it was people begging and things like that and he couldn't take that. Yeah. And I think he was, I went on my own and I have stayed there for three months and two months on my own. So and I don't mind being on my own, adventuring. Yeah. Talking to people, talking to press that's what I have done in the past. So I didn't mind that. I was there when the bombing was taking place you know, this Babri masjid and all that. And I was in a Muslim area and people knew that I was Hindu, there was a phone call as well that they will come and bomb the bus which I was going to sit, they knew my journey so yeah. And then where I was doing workshop there was a phone call that this is what they were going to do, but I was not scared. Yeah. But the people were, so they, they I knew that they will look after me and even if something happened to me it was, you know I wasn't worried about that. If was going to happen, it was to be. It's nothing you could do. Yeah, I mean I had, I am not scared of things now. Okay. And finally then just to round off the interview do you have any final message to give it to people who will be listening in the future? Yeah, if, if you have any ambition to do something good for others, just go, you know if your heart tells you it's right thing then just go for it and do it the strength will come itself to you and you get the strength. Okay, thank you.