Swaminarayan Sect., Shikshapatri This is an interview for the British Hindu Oral History project. My name is Surya Bansal and it's the 18th of April. 18th of April sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview Surya Bansal Abhijeet Joshi 131 Raju Thakkar Male Kenya

U.K. high school EN Swahili, Gujarati, Hindi, English Okay, first of all we will just go over some background stuff. Where are your parents from? My parents originally are from Bhavnagar, India and they moved into Kenya, Mombasa in 1930's and I was born in Mombasa, myself. What village were they from, sorry? Bhavnagar, India. And, so you, do you have, still have relatives in the village? To be honest I was born in you know Kenya, so I am not very familiar with India, to be honest you know. Yeah. I have visited a few times just when we have got functions like our, from my temples. But I haven't seen Bhavnagar myself. Okay, so you have not really been back there? No. Okay so in Kenya, any sort of childhood memories or just ---? It's a lovely, lovely place. I have been educated there. I had a business there with my parents. You know, my business, passed the business to us, to the brothers you know. We were five brothers. It's a paradise. Yeah. It's a paradise. Green. Yes. So you went, you said you went, you went to school, an Indian school in India? No, in Kenya. My brought up, my education everything is in Kenya, Mombasa. So when you were there at schooling age, it was quite well established there? It was established there, yes. And then so. In my time you know, we could even learn Gujarati there. Really? As a second language. It only came Swahili after 1970s, you know after independence you know. Yeah. Okay, and then did you go to college there or did you, you just finished school? No, I just finished the high school only. And you said you had your business with your brothers? Brothers, yeah. And what was that, sorry? It was import-export business. And what year was it when you came to U.K.? Basically we, because I had a British nationality. So I had a problem of getting work permit you know. I was not a Kenyan citizen. But it was a bit difficult you know in the beginning we couldn't get work permit but then gradually it started creating more problems. And could you get a Kenyan sort of passport? No. So you always had this British passport? British passport yes. Because when I was born it was under the British rules you know. Yeah. Okay so what age were you when you came to the U.K.? Good question. In 59 so it's about 50 years ago I came. 44. And what were your reasons for coming? It was actually the work permit was the first major issue because it was very difficult to get. And secondly my children were growing up and education, secondary they were all in secondary. And they were now looking for going into university. So it was the right time to come. Yeah and where did you come to sort of when you first got here? I came straight London because I had my brothers and sisters established before I came here. Okay yeah. And your first thoughts when you first came here? I was scared to be honest. Because I had a business there and I couldn't do business here because money you know it's very difficult here. And so how old were your children then? The youngest was about seven or eight. And the eldest was fourteen. And what did they think of it? For them it was all right you know then because they have all dreamed of England you know. Any difficulties when you first came for your family? To establish in the beginning you know I couldn't get a job. Because I had never worked in my life you know, it was difficult for me to find a job. And to establish a business was very expensive, I couldn't afford a business. So for a year I was a bit hard up here. It was struggle. But with grace of our Guru Pramukh Swami Maharaja you see we progressed with his blessing you know. And after a year my wife got the job, I got the job and so we have been living you know. Religious played a big part you know. It gave us the encouragement and it gave us progress. And obviously the Swaminarayan was quite well established here. Yes, it was well established. So it was helpful. So some socializing. Who did you socialize with? Main socialization is here. Temple. Temple. At the temple. Monday to Friday we work and weekends we are here. So we meet all our friends, relatives what ever you say is all here in this temple. So like some of these questions well do not like applicable to you because I mean we all often ask people like when you first came here getting hold of spices and food. I mean that wouldn't have been a problem? No, when I came here I could get everything. I could get better than Kenya now. So little bit on your practices in the U.K. Religiously you know your family, are you or have you always been a religious family? We had been a religious family, yes. My father had been very religious. And it came into our blood you know and so it passed to our children also so our children also come here. And they also give us all the Seva in the temple. And at home is there any sort of? Yes we have got a small temple in home. You have got, you have Swaminarayan Murtis. Yes Murtis and we do every morning prayers, we have got our individual prayers and that is a must you know. Yeah. So has that continued to as practices like from Kenya or from your father? It's basically Swaminarayan was not our first religion you know. But when Yogi Baba came there in 1960's there was a function and you know father went there, was invited you know by the Swaminarayan group. And he loved it you know. He found peace in that temple. He started going everyday. Before we were going into Shankar Mandir in Mombasa it was the biggest Mandir there you know. At that time Swaminarayan was not that popular you know. But after coming of Yogi Baba there things started moving you know. It did some kind of a like a magnet you know. And people started getting attracted into this temple and he blessed people and some of the things came into their life true you know. And that's how my father started and then it came to us gradually. And we had Yog Gyan Mandal there you know and I started joining that Mandal and I got more hooked up into this religion. And could you now let me ask like did your father, did he ever stay there, in Africa? Yes he died in East Africa. So I guess then you do have a family Guru there as well. Which is? It is Pramukh Swami Maharaja. When you were in Kenya did you have or lived over here did you have any Gurus or Swamis visiting your home? Here we have other not Swamiji himself because due to his age you know he has been limited to go out. He does pretty much travels constantly isn't it? He travels, but comes and stays in the temple. He doesn't go individual houses now. Due to his old age he is now 86. But other Saints do come and they regularly come. So whenever he comes with the other Saints the elder Saints would visit us you know if we invite. Like last time we had Viveksagar Swami who was regularly with Pramukh Swami Maharaja on all the trips you know through out the world. He came to my place. So we do invite and we also get our own Santos from here you know any occasions or any times they do come to our place. So do you work here? I do work here. So it's kind a lot of major part here. It's the center, you know you spend a lot of time here. All weekends I spend here. I can say one more thing you know I had a very big vies you know when I was in Kenya. I used to drink and I used to smoke. But after coming into the contact with Yogi Baba he blessed. It didn't go straight away you know it took some time. With more blessing from Pramukh Swami I am proud to say today that I am no more smoking and no more drinking. It's a miracle. It is very difficult to leave smoking or drinking you know. Specially smoking. But I am surprised how I left because I used to smoke twenty a day. And his blessing did work on me. That's good. So I am just going to move on to sort of you and what it is to be a part of Swaminarayan or being a Hindu basically. I mean so what makes you a Hindu? And you said as that you gave up sort of principle, we have certain principles that a person adhere to. What makes you kind of a Hindu? Well we are Hindus from the beginning you know my parents are Hindus from India so in our blood it is Hinduism you know. It's very difficult to change our culture now. No doubt we do get sometime Christianity people come to our place you know door to door. We do invite them we do discuss with them. You know we don't discard their religion. But it is difficult to change our religion because you have been brought up from there our life and the day we were born. And Swaminarayan Sanstha is getting so big now, I mean and so recognized now and it helps you in everyday you know life also and people can easily see it you know. When you talk about Pramukh Swami Maharaja it's so popular. You can get a lot of help from the general public you know. But like practically speaking on a day-to-day basis you know what makes you a Hindu sort of? You know do you know what I mean because like what are your routines you know that make you, I mean because obviously you do not smoking as one. Like Hinduism you know we have got our own Shiksha Patri. We follow the Shikshapatri rules you know. So if you go to Christmas party then no we are not going to eat, we are not going to drink. So they organized for us specially you know vegetarian dishes. It's that is Hinduism recognized now. Even in the offices even in the hotels you know. So it is recognized now as a second culture in this world you know. So what values, you have probably kind of almost pretty much answered that really but what values and beliefs are important to you? You follow Shikshapatri. We talked about that. You won't go wrong if you follow Shikshapatri and he will take everything, he will take care of you you know what ever difficulties you have got. Do you believe in Karma and Reincarnation? Reincarnation yes. We do believe. That's why we don't try to make any sins in this world you know. Because we don't want second life, what we want is that we want to straight to go to Akshardham, after when we die. And that is that is what Swamiji has promised that if you follow Shikshapatri you will definitely, I will take you to Akshardham. So does Karma come into that I mean because how about some reactions? Well if you are scared that you know, that you are going to be reborn. It's a kind of you know you think that you don't want to have animal life next. So in a way if they teach you that you are going to reborn means re-incarnation is there. So you try to be good citizen in this world you know. It helps a lot. So what happens, you have kind of answered this as well, what happens when you die? I am sure my Pramukh Swami will take me to Akshardham and I will be in his seva you know there, what I am doing seva here now. I will be under his seva Maharaja seva there. So do you think it's important for the Hindus to do charity work? It is always good to help other people who are in need. Like at the moment my daughter has gone back to Mombasa. She is an optician by profession. She has gone to do an eye camp for the local people there and all expense is beared by her you know. It is in her blood you know my blood is her blood to do seva. So she is doing a seva there. It's eye camp for a week there in Mombasa at Mariakani now. And at the moment she is doing a seva there. She rang me the other night only and it's very difficult. She has to start eight o'clock in the morning to six in the evening. And so many people are in the need of this seva you know. And she is proud to be my daughter. And so do you think that being a member of Swaminarayan, does it promote? It does, it takes away greediness from you. So it's a bit of a strange question but we always ask. Have you ever had any sort of a realization or spiritual experience since you have been? Well yes I had a very big experience. I had a hernia you know and all the doctors asked me to operate it. I went to Yogi Baba, this I am talking long time ago now forty years back, I went to yogi baba and I said look my doctor is telling me to do operation now. He blessed me. He gave me a piece of cloth, you know to wear instead of an under wear you know and he said wear this nothing will happen. And I was wearing that for next thirty years nothing happened to me even nothing I had to come to England nothing happened to me. But here the physician, you know threatened me that if anything you get strangulated or anything if you come we won't treat you. And it was big there was no pain. I have never suffered any pain. They were surprised when to see my, this hernia thing, he says I don't know how you have lived these twenty years. That's a miracle. Just to move on to the next section. Just a little bit, like Hindus today, start with yourself, I mean how can you tell that probably, religiously I mean more religious today? Oh!! Yes, definitely, because this religion brings more into deeper and deeper. And the more older you get, the more. Yes they do help you to be more religious. What about the youth today? Youth? More or less religious? I would say fifty-fifty now because our generations are all right but I am doubtful that the third generation they get the influence or not. You see life over here. So if there are no more temples then it would be a problem. But with Pramukh swami's you know blessing and we are now opening a center in every center to stop you know getting this drugs away, away from drugs, drinks and cigarettes and all this. And this is very good. Do you think that it's important for, to learn their mother tongue? Yes, you should. And you should read your past you know history of India. That Mahabharat you know. It is essential. So what about, do you think practically that the younger, the fourth generation coming I mean how many could speak just like a common being can speak your mother tongue? From East Africa all of them speak. But after coming here you know younger generation has got a problem our language Gujarati. But like we have now a school here every Sunday School. Similarly all the communities have started now Gujarati schools. So it is coming back now to give guidance to the children now. They are seeing its importance. Otherwise we will be out of our religion. What about the Caste issues today? Do you think that's applicable now a days? In what way? May be seventy or hundred years ago the Caste system was quite as it was in this country a crucial part of any individual's life. So what about now a days? There is a difference, you know. But in our religion its given as a pressure like, you know that you treat everybody you know and think that he is your brother and sister. So it helps us. But if you don't see with that angle then always becomes a different caste. Then it is difficult. Oh! He is Muslim, he is Christian, he is this, try not to look at that, you know see what they are. That's what I believe. So also like in India is that still, is the cast system still active or is that also dying out? It is dying out. Do you think that's for the best then? I think it is best. To live in this world you know as one nation. At the moment if you see Pakistan, India you know they are trying to unite One. This, the cricket people started playing you know, film stars are going there. Even they are trying to make that you know this difference should be taken away. Shortly we should live in a peaceful way. So how would you define yourself now a days as a person would you say that you are a Hindu, an Indian, a British Hindu, a Hindu with Africa, I mean what? I would treat myself as Hindu. I wouldn't say I am an East African Hindu or Indian Hindu or anything. I am a Hindu. That's the most important thing? So where do you see as home? I still love Kenya. Since I was born there but circumstances has brought me here. But if I get chance I would go back to Kenya, not India. Not that you know because I am born in Kenya. Life is good there. Not that life in India is not good. I am Hindu I can be equally good in Kenya or equally good in India or equally good in here. So it makes no difference for me. But if life becomes again here difficult and life is easy there I will go back to Kenya. And as a question I was meant to ask you early on actually about your coming to U.K. Do you experience any racism? Oh!! Yes. Still in our work you know. It is still in our work. That will not go. It is very difficult because they have got power see. Today in my work you know there are more black people who are in the Employment Section you know. So they are more powerful there and the local English people are not bothered you know as long as their work to be done. The top level is English. The Black have second level now. And with the Indians it is very difficult. Even in the jobs you know eighty percent are the Black, twenty percent are Indians. Do you think that there is a little bit of like over consecrating for the black community may be? It looks like in some areas, yes. They have overtaken Indians, you know. So what you think as a Hindu also as sort of what do you think the answer is to that problem? I think it's a problem with us only, you know. Hinduism is such a country peaceful you know. Our Lord Swamiji says you live in peace. That's it. We have no fighting spirit you know. We don't want to fight. If some body bosses around we would bow down rather than fight and fight for our rights. That's the problem. So it's a difficult issue. So what about Mahabharat times, the fighting's? Fighting no. That is not in our blood. No its not our blood. Not in Indian blood. May be Mahabharat's time you know but not this. They were great fighters. Okay just finally I am just going to ask you that any sort of thoughts you would like to add or any final thought, anybody might be listening? Whatever religion you follow, whether it's Hinduism, Christianism or what ever. Or you are a Muslim, you know. You should not think of the religion as a religion, you know and take advantage. You should treat everybody as a human being. You are born here and you are not going to live for life, you know only few hundred, at the moment now is in the seventy or eighty years. You should do good in this life rather than, you know, you are a Muslim, you are a Christian, you are Hindu. Hinduism teaches you know to love each other and that's what should be the principle of everybody. Rather than hatred, you know. And would you say that most of the congregation have the same sort of attitude? No, it varies. Swaminarayan has quite a good relations with every other sort of group in the area. So would you say as a part of their life, that's why? Because if Pramukh Swami comes you know we invite all the different religion you know here. We specially organize their day, a special day you know for them to come and greet and take part on the stage, you know like Jewish, Ismailis or Muslims or what ever you know with Sikh's, with Patel's, with Shah's and all. Even when we have got big functions we invite all the Councilors without thinking of what creed or caste they are. So that is love, love is everywhere. That is what Swaminrayan believes in. Thank you. Okay, Jai Swaminarayan.