Life in Uganda, Life in Leicester, Hinduism 22nd November, 2003 sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview Abhijeet Joshi 133 Rambha Odedra Female Uganda

Belgrave U.K. G.C.S.C Library Assistant, working with the Asian Community EN Gujarati, Hindi, English, French I would like to start off the interview with you telling me a bit about your parents and where they came from? My parents are originally, they are from India and from Gujarat, in Saurashtra, which is Southwest of Gujarat, near Porbandar and my father immigrated to Uganda, in East Africa, when he was very young man. And he had just got married to my mother and he wanted to move away from family kind of, thing. Because my families are all into farming and you know, my dad was not very keen to continue the work with my granddad. So he wanted to explore and go you know, to abroad, in another country and he was very ambitious. So he went along, in a boat actually, in those days and it took him whole month to travel over the ocean. Because in those days, there were not any ships or anything like that, and he just, you know, went along to Mumbai and got on the boat and you know, he did not even know which way he is heading and he landed in East Africa like. And I think, from Kenya, he traveled you know, like maybe hiking and whatever and went to Uganda and stayed with some Asian families there and eventually he, sort of, got a job and you know, settled down in Uganda. So your mom actually traveled with him then as well? No. In the beginning, my mom did not travel, no. My mom was in India for a couple of years, I did not like that. So he did the adventuring first. Yes, yeah. Okay. Yeah, he moved and he sort of, because in India, like everybody, you know, what it is like in rural villages, it is really frightening and you know, people say, oh, you would not see your son again and. But my dad was adamant. He wanted to really go and explore and find out what is happening out there. And actually, he, what he tells us that, he argued with his father and he moved away. I mean, in those days, it is a big thing to break away from family kind of, trade and my granddad was not very happy. But my mother stayed with my grandma and my granddad and my mom, my dad went to visit after a year and then my mom stayed another year until, he had somewhere you know, to stay and establish job and things like that. And then, in that period, my mother had a baby as well, who is my eldest brother, who is sixty now and you know, then, I think, after my brother was a year or so, she went and joined my dad in Africa. In Uganda? Yeah, in Uganda. Yes. And what was, what did your father get a job as then? My father was very mechanical, like he is not educated. He is only been to, up to two levels so, two classes, which is you know, when he was nine or ten, only two you know, class rooms, which is year one and year two kind of, thing. Yeah. So he just learned little bit of Gujarati and that is all. He never, he did not know a word of English or anything. And in Africa, he did not have clue about Swahili language at all. But, he is very intelligent man and I really look up on him, that how he was brave to settle down in a strange country with different language, all the natives there. And he had this very, you know, he was quite a skilled you know, with natural skills, where he was very mechanical, so he did kind of, work like, engineering type of work. So he was working in an Oil Mill actually. In oil refinery, where you know, cooking oils were refined, yeah. And then he was a like, a Mechanical Engineer within that factory? Yeah, he started mechanically and then he learned the skills about different machinery and everything, just by working, he progressed in his, you know, career and he became, like a foreman there, when we were all young. I mean he had a very nice position there, yeah. So do you have any other, because you said your older brother was born in India? Yes. And then, was there more in the family before you were born? Yeah, there is, I have got a, I am from a big family. I have got four brothers and three sisters including me. So there is this eldest brother, then there is another brother and there is three sisters, like have I got two sisters older than me and two brothers younger than me. So my two eldest brothers were born in India and rest of us were born in Africa, in Uganda, yes. So what was it like for you then growing up in Uganda? It was, well, it was really nice. I mean, for me it was my home and it, still I feel that you know, that is, I feel like closer to Africa and I feel it was really lovely country, very nice. We had never had any problems with weather because it was tropical country and everything was really healthy and you know, happy living. I mean, we were in a rural area, where the Oil Mill was and there was only about fifteen families or so, staying there, of Asian. I mean, there were lots of Africans around, who were working in the Oil Mill and everything. But you know, for, as far as Asians were concerned, there were very few and everybody was really close to each other. There was a really nice unity of you know, working together and looking after each other and never had any kind of, problem as, I had a very happy childhood. Because my dad was earning nicely, he was a fathering us nicely. My mom was at home all the time. like proper housewife, bringing children up and you know, cooking and we had a house boy and, so it was very comfortable staying. I mean, we had lot of fresh fruits and vegetable and you know, we never, I mean, there is, there was not anything like, television or anything. So we had very natural upbringing. There was no peer pressure or nothing, as such that we were very happy playing out all games and you know. Just played out all over the day. Yeah, I mean, just go to school. I mean we were walking to school. There was a team of us, all the children, who went to local school. We went to school where it was an English Medium education because you know, there were schools in the villages, which were very African based school and education was not as much to the standard. They were teaching in African languages. So my dad had real kind of, ambition for us as well. So I always feel, you know, thankful to him that he gave us best you know, as we were in the village. We were about two miles away and school was and we everyday, we would walk to school, a team of students. Walk two miles? Yeah, walk two miles to school and it was lovely. We had some English teachers there from, you know, England, like teaching us as well. So from Primary school, I mean, obviously, we did not have a Nursery school in those days down there. There wasn't facility where we were. So my education started at the age of five, which is primary one and primary, you know what. And up to the year eleven I, until I was eleven years old, I was in Primary school in Busembatia, the village where we were staying. And then, I moved on to, when I was in Secondary education, then my father decided that we should move to, in a city called Jinja. It is not very far from Kampala. And, because my sister was staying, lodging somewhere and my other brother was lodging, so he could not really afford everybody lodging somewhere as having the education. And then in those days, we had to pay fees as well for education, nothing. I mean, they do not have this service where, you know, you get free education. There was nothing like Government thing. Everything was private. So when my mother and us, you know, children moved for, by then, my second eldest brother was in England, here and my eldest brother was in India, studying. So two brothers were aboard studying, you see. So your elder brother had he, he had come to England to study, yeah? Yeah. No, my, the eldest brother, he was in India, he was studying in Baroda, university. He was studying to do medicine and my second eldest brother came to U.K, to study you know, business kind of, courses, but I think, after a while he decided he wanted to work. So he just started working. He got a job here. I think here, there was more influence to find a job. But, whereas in India, my eldest brother was in a boarding, where he was, yeah, sort of, just there like, you know, getting his education sorted out. What was the Hindu community like then, in Africa, because in the smaller place you said a there was only fifteen families, then you moved to the city, so there was, obviously more Hindu families there. What was, did you like meet up to do celebrations or was there temples or how, what happened? Yeah. There wasn't a temple when we were in the village. But people used to practice at home you know, all the ladies, as I said, they were not working. So any festival would come, they would be reading from books and doing stories and plays and all sorts of things, like when, you know, Diwali comes, there is lot of festive you know, mood there that everybody is cooking all this nice exotic you know, Diwali goodies, and reading from Ramayana and you know, in school we would do drama and things like that. So you know, like that we were all trained from very young age that these are the festivals dates and they are celebrated. I mean, we would have big fire works and you know, Diwali was holiday for everybody and go to each other's house and enjoy and you know, just mingle around. And we as a children, we used to look forward to, because I have got sweet tooth and I used to love all the Diwali goodies. And we were called out. I mean, we would love to kind of, just watch our moms making all this, different preparations of different Burfis and everything. And then in the city then was a temple, did you say, in the city, yeah? Yeah, in the city there was temple. So we would attend regularly temple, like weekends and or if any festivals are there then we would go in the weekdays. But mostly it would be weekends like, to go to, morning you know, like Aarti and just attend some evening, if there is some discourse or if some big Swami have come to do recital of Bhagvat or Ramayana then we would go. But I mean, as a child, you are not really as much geared up. You are there because you like Prasad or some sweet things and you like to be there because your friends are there. So for us that was the mood like that, oh, you are going there because your moms are sitting there. If it is Bhajans then you, you know, we used to enjoy, like sitting there and listing. But I used to like dancing so, if, it is Garba dancing or Navratri dancing. I will be out there you know, with our dancing sticks and nice outfits, yes. So you are still doing the same thing? It's changed little bit. So, at what point then, you said that your other brothers were studying, what about your sisters then? Did they study? My sisters, my elder sister like, you know, in those days education was not promoted so much to you know, daughters because like, my father had came from village, so my father thought, okay, she is, you know, my elder sister became like a second mother to us. She was kind of, she did lot of learning. She stayed in Jinja with us and she was learning embroidery and you know, cutting and dressmaking and she gained all sorts of skills like that. I mean, she used to embroidery beautiful sarees and anything she would she, like a dress, she would sew it you know. And my middle sister had this trend, that, oh, I want this kind of, you know, dress. Because we used to have all our dresses sown. We never had readymade dresses bought. And she used to do tailoring for us, like whatever style we both liked, she would do that and she looked after the four, like myself and my younger two brother and my other sister. I mean, she was all time like, taking care of us and supporting my mother and father in that kind of duties. She was not very keen to go for further education. But she acquired her skills in other way, in cutting and sowing and in embroidery work and you know, she did lovely like Jari you know, sowing on the saree. In those days, all the Sarees were sown. Because this was lady, ladies used to do of our age that they would sit together and do the mirror work and you know, all the beadwork and everything. So she you know, acquired all these skills and I find it very sad that, I never got opportunity to do any of that. Because I was young, like I was only 9, 10 at that time and I was kind of, you know, more for the education. I mean, I was living up my age. But, you know, she, you know I remember her work, she really-really did, you know, really gorgeous work. I mean she would sew Punjabi suits, saree blouses. Anything she would see, she would make it. She would just do that easily. Yeah. Again like my father, she had this talent that, you know, she will just do it. Yeah. And my other sister and myself, we studied. And then, in 1972, we came here because you know, about Uganda Asian, Idi Amin had this crazy idea of getting rid of all the Asians. So because we had British citizenship, we came in this country. My father was not very keen to come here because he is very cultured and he thought, when we, if we go to Western country, he will ruin, he will lost, you know, he loses his daughters, because he was very protective father. That you know, it will influence us and we won't be, you know, like properly situated. He wanted to take us to India and settle us down there and send us to Gurukul schools in India and where we would have kind of, you know, proper care and we would be protected from the influence of Western sort of, culture. But you know, it was, we were destined to come here because we had another family friends who were from Brahmin community, where my sisters were lodging and my brother and all. And because they had a lodger inn, they had a guesthouse and things. So they encouraged my dad that you know, go to England. If do not like it you can always go to India. But at least try it out. And my brother here, who was my second eldest brother, his name is Hamir you know, he was very keen that we come in this country and he kept writing and following and you know, emphasizing on my uncle you know, this from Brahmin community that, tell my father you know, you put some sense in him that he brings my family here. Otherwise in India they will all suffer you see. Because we had up bringing in Africa and to survive in India, it would not have been easy for all of us. It would have been a bit tough because we were quite protected. It is different, yeah. Yeah, in Africa. So he said, take them you know, make sure they come here. So my, it is, bless my uncle that he really encouraged my father to come to England and we decided to come here. But it was quite a rough journey like actually coming from Uganda, coming out from Uganda because of all the situation with natives you know, Armies and violence and. Tell me how old were you then? I was 12. So tell me about, how it all happened and what was it like, for you and your family? It was really, he announced like, that in three months he wants all the Asians out. And as soon as, all these kind of, became, all the Africans became really aggressive and violent and you know I mean, they do not have any civilized kind of, situation there and they were attacking people, they were, there were curfews, we were not allowed to go out after six or so and it was really-really frightening. As children were really frightened because we were staying alone with my mother and my dad was in the village called Busembatia and we would really-really wait for my father to come and visit us. Friday evening he would come home and again Sunday he would go back to the village where he was working. And we would be really, I mean, we would just crowd round at night even. We were so insecure that, any noise we would hear, we would cry you know, just hug our mothers and just sit down and you know, just did not know what to do really. Because we were staying in a flat in, behind shop, you know, shop front on a main road, which was opposite, the main city road in Jinja and we could hear all this, Army people marching and doing the beats and screaming and shouting and you know, shot guns and all sorts of noises were there. It was very frightening. I mean, you know, we witness kind of, burglary next-door house and you know, they were just vandalizing everything they could and destroying. And anybody they would come across, they had no, kind of, you know, sympathy or at all, just beat or hit or damage anything they could see or destroy anything they could find. Was your family directly; did your family get directly involved in anything, where they injured or anything like that? No, what happened that, we came, the first month when the announcement came, obviously to organize the visas and passport and you know, money and everything to come out of Uganda, it was a big drama because my father had to go and wait in Kampala, in immigration for long time for, in the queues to organize the tickets. And obviously, my father you know, he did not have that cash. I mean, we were living very happily but, he did not have saving as such, that he could immediately get a ticket. So he borrowed money of my another uncle, in Uganda and he said he will return it in India or in, you know, here in U.K somehow, because my dad had some money in India, you know. So he borrowed this money and then, got the tickets organized. And when we came, you know, the, when we were organized to come here, finally we got the tickets and there were coaches, like organized for people to be traveling from whichever cities they were going to Entebbe Airport. And at the Airport, like we were just you know, there was a huge coach, I remember, and everybody was just there and we had to all the time make sure that we are with our family and we are not separated from there, you know, we were really clinging I mean, there were, I was like, thirteen, my younger brother, who is six years younger than me right, so he was very young and the youngest was about four years or so. So we were very young. And my elder sister played really good role as well, like she kind of, looked after and my dad and all. And none of us, like my mother-father did not speak any English, so we had little skill of like, we, me and my sister right, were the only main speaker of English at the age of, mine age was thirteen and my other sister, that time she was fifteen, she is two years older than me. So we were kind of, interpreters at that age. You know, when we were at Entebbe Airport, here, when we came here and it was really kind of, big responsibility to kind of liaison things between your father and the immigration and at the Airport and everywhere. Absolutely, yeah. And we were just in, at the Airport as well, we were just in camps, waiting for next flight. It was just stand by, like you just wait until your turn comes to get on the plane. As soon as there is availability, just go. Yeah. And how much were you allowed to bring with you then? Well, there was unlimited. We could, there was no limit on bringing the luggage but how much could we carry? I mean, we were all very young. But my mother, because everybody said, "it is so cold in England, it is so cold in England." So, I mean, she, bless her, got some blanket in the suitcase and some, you know, like few pillows and she made some sweets to travel with, some chapattis and what not, like some you know, dry stuff that we could eat as we traveled and you know, good job. We did, I mean, we were waiting like, a day and night at the Airport to get on the plane to you know, come to U.K and there was so much fear as well that we might get separated. You know if you are not together. Right, there was only so much space or then, yeah. Yeah, that some would go in one plane and others would go in other plane and, you know, it was really frightening that they might just send us with my mother and my father, we will never see again. And it happened to many families, that families were separated, like you see. And there was no guarantee at all, that you sort of, going to be together. So once we were on the plane, I mean, the Air crew were very, you know, good because it was like, I cannot remember, maybe it was British Airways or and they were you know, the plane crew were very good. Once we were on the plane, we had not had much problem. And I, you know, what happened to me is, because of all this fear I had my periods on the plane and it was, I mean, I you know, this only my second period or something and it was really frightening, like it was really a nightmare. Because really-really I just did not know what to do like and I you know, I told my other sister, middle sister and she spoke to the Air Stewart and she gave me something to kind of, you know, clean that. It was really, I mean, when I think of it, it just makes me cry, that it was so traumatic. When we came from there, my brother here was aware that we are going to you know, get on the plane, sooner or later. So he was at Stansted Airport. I mean, we were not even sure which Airport we are going to land and my dad gave him the number, which Air flight we going to you know, come in to from somehow from Uganda and he was waiting like there for whole day, like you know, trying to see which plane we are going to be coming into you know. So he came to receive us at Stansted Airport. And it was really, once we got out there, at the Airport, they immediately took us into some you know, lounge, where it was warm. And as we came down the plane, snow was falling. I mean it was October like. I was really shocked like, you know, really shocked at the system, never seen anything like that. I mean, you know we have read in the storybooks like, you know, you, we read children's stories that there is snow and cold and things like that. But experiencing that, like cold air immediately hits you on the face, like coming from hot country, wearing short sleeve dresses and you know, mini dresses and things like that, no shoes, nothing. And at the Airport, we were sat down, they made us hot coffee and teas and they gave us some soup and I don't know, they brought us some you know, food as well, like you know, some hot food and everything. And there was a whole team of people taking care, like they were you know, they kept asking if we are okay, and you know, like comforting. And they brought whole boxes of kind of, warm clothes like coats and jumpers and you know, shoes and tights and things like that, they brought for us that we could chose from there. Okay. Yeah, so that was really nice. But we had no clue that we have to wear this kind of things here. It was really. Just no idea. I mean, we have never seen a winter coat like, it was really shocking. What is this, like big chunky thing. What you do with it, you know, never seen tights in our life. It must have been crazy. Yeah, it was. So, I mean, from there we came, because my brother hired a car and he you know, he, with this uncle who we, who helped us, he came as well and my brother, so he had old Cortina at that time, was about, five seaters. So my mom-dad and my two younger brothers went in the car and our luggage, some luggage and then us, three sister went with my uncle on the train from Stansted Airport to London. I mean, first experience on British rail, like. What was that like? I think, it was really kind of, fascinating. Yeah, just looking out of the window. Yeah. Because only trains I caught was like, you know, early days in Jinja, in Uganda, the local steam trains in Uganda. And this was quite fast moving and you know, sort of, really clean and tidy and everything and so nicely organized you see. So we came to Tooting Broad, we went I think, Euston or Kings Cross or somewhere and then from there we got into underground and that was even really kind of, shock like, you know. Was it scary? It was first that, are we going in some dungeon or you know or under the rocks or mountains or what is happening here, like big loud noise and banging you know, when the train moves in the tube. But it was you know, we felt safe because we were out of Uganda, we were with this uncle and we knew my brother has got a house. He rented two rooms actually in Tooting, in Ilford, we stayed in Ilford, somewhere on top you know, some families he knew and we stayed there for, I think, month or so. And then we moved to Tooting Broadway, where we were living in a Muslim family home and very nice family, but it was really cold. House was so cold. There was no central heating, nothing. Have you just had like a fire or something? No fire. They had one gas fire because there were two rooms we had and we were sharing kitchen with them and bathroom was in the kitchen. It was really strange. They had a big bath tub in the middle of kitchen, like kitchen was as big as this room and the toilet was in the basement, I mean, in a cellar like you know, how it is with a cellar. And toilet was really dirty you know, it was really stinking. They were not very clean family and they were meat, I mean, obviously I am not saying, we used to eat meat in those days as well, you know, their cooking really stank and it was not really clean house and she, the lady had about four young children and we did, it was not peaceful stay at all there. It was quite crowded. Yeah, it was crowded. Because we were, like in two rooms, we had one room in the attic, where me and my sister slept, we had a television, which was Black and White television. So it was really luxury like, we used to watch all these movies you know, upstairs. But it was bitterly cold. We had paraffin heaters there and you know, it was really a learning experience. My brother was very good. He kind of, everyday he used to train us that, this is how you do this, that, other and using gas cooker. Because we had never seen gas cookers, like we were, you know in Africa we had charcoal, like cooking naturally on the charcoal, you know, things. And in Jinja we had electric cookers I think, there wasn't much, nothing like gas. And cooking was mostly done sitting down, like you know, not standing up. Not all standing up at counters. Yeah. So it was really, everything was different. Then he tried to get admission for us in school, like my sister got immediately admission you know, in here, fifth year. But I, you know, the local school near to our Catchment area, I did not get, there was not any space in my year. So I went to Grammar School in Clapham Common, which was a bus ride like, about half and hour. Yeah, then we settled down and we did not have problem as in education luckily because we were, you know, the standard was similar like we were doing British syllables and we were doing all the boards, which were London you know, like A.E.B. boards and all. So we both got into G.C.S.Cs standard. I was in year four and she was in, like I was fourteen plus and she was fifteen. So she did her exams here later, I did my, two years later and we had very nice attention in school we had a special support. They thought we might have, we might need literacy and numeric skills you know, support. But they assessed us and we were okay. And as a subject, because we were learning African language in Uganda as a subject, here you know, they, like in Secondary school you have to learn one language, so we were learning French. I had a really special attention in learning French and I enjoy, there was only two of us. School was really kind of, mainly English students and there was only three or four of us who were Asians, in school I went to. One girl was Muslim, so this Muslim lady and myself, we were both learning French. But it was nice. They gave us Vegetarian dinners because we were not sure, what meat they giving us, you see. I mean, although I was eating non-veg at that time, my father from beginning sort of, put down that we do not eat beef and things like that. So they gave us Vegetarian meal and the meals were full of boiled peas and carrots and you know, all this. Tasteless. It was really, just didn't know, I mean, you never had anything like that, boiled carrots and in carrots, in Africa people do not eat as much like you see, it is not a food you eat so much. I mean, in India as well, carrots are kind of, low cheap vegetables, which is grown to feed any mouse, like. And peas, like you know, you just see mushy peas and you know, boiled peas and boiled cabbage and cauliflower and all. But we managed and they give us a plate full of grated cheese. I had never eaten cheese before like and you know, just beginning to you know. Just get used to them. Just tried little bit, then at three-thirty come home and have a proper meal. But we survived that, yeah, I mean, both, I mean, me and my sister. My brothers were admitted as well in school and I mean, all, throughout this all experiences, it was me and my sister mediating all the time. My brother was good like I mean, he, but obviously he had to work to support all of us, you see. So we were like, you know, more kind of, interpreters in most of the things, like if there was any social or welfare things needed to be done or hospitals or things like that, we had to help my dad out and you know, sort out any kind of, paper work to do with, yeah, to support my brother. So when did you, you were living in this house with the Muslims then, when did you move from there then? We moved, from there we got a Council, from there because my dad, when we came to this country and because of all these change and shock and everything, my dad had bronchitis in Africa, but it was controlled when we moved here because of damp weather. My dad became worse and he ended up in hospitals several times with really bad bronchitis. And my younger brother started as well, with Asthma attacks and all. So we had social worker coming and you know, taking care and like we were obviously being refugees, we were treated like a special case. And they, you know, gave us a Council house because of my dad's condition. And we got this Council house in Clapham Common, which was nice terraced house, like three bedroom you know, terraced villa and we moved. From there we moved to this Council house, so it was much better. Then at least we had our own house and we could you know, settle down there. So eventually we did settle down in that house and everybody felt bit more settled, like you know, we established way of life here and you know, escorted my mother every Saturday, you know, she would want to go and do shopping in market. There was a local market in Balham and you know, one of us had to walk with her with the trolley like to bring the vegetables back. To bring everything back. Because she did not speak any English, like it is going to me, my sister or my younger brother, who would go with her and tell her all the price of the vegetables, that this is this much, this is this much. From very young age we all did lot of translating you see. And then she likes to haggle you see, because she thought that, okay, in Africa, in India you have to haggle everything, and she would stand there, with the markets told people haggling, I will pay you this much. And I think, it became a bit embarrassing for us. You cannot do it mom, you can't do that mom, you just pay the price they ask you to pay. What was the Hindu community like then in Clapham? In Balham, we had a nice Clapham Common, we had a temple Radha Krishna temple. There was this lady called Shama Devi, she was a Krishna devotee and she was, she had open a temple in Balham and she had beautiful Radha Krishna deities and I felt very attracted, but somehow rather we were not encouraged to go there very much because there were all these rumors, this Shama Devi takes girls, young girls away and she you know, she gets them staying in her Ashram. Oh, okay. So my parents were kind of, very reluctant to you know, spend lot of time there with us. My mom would go in the afternoon for Satsang, when we are away in schools. But for weekends and all, we were very kind of, we would go for darshan but we were not left alone because she was very familiar like that and people had this fear that she is taking, yeah I mean, she was Vaishnavi and I heard about her recently in Srila Prabhupada's lecture somewhere, yeah and that he met her sometime ago and when she was in England or in here or somewhere, and I was listing, that she, you know, when she went to see Srila Prabhupada, I mean, Prabhupada sort of, she was dancing with Mridanga. I heard that, yeah. Yeah. Have you heard that? I heard that story, yeah. Yeah. So then I talked to Dayananda Prabhu that I have seen her, like, that this is Shama Devi, who is you know, who has got a temple in Tooting Broadway and we used to go as young children there and you know, I used to enjoy because she used to sit like and she reminded me of Meerabai you see, because she would have her hair loose and white saree and I thought, 'she is such a devoted lady.' And you know, when devotee speak you feel attracted you see, I mean, she was really kind of, you know, spiritually inclined and she was very peaceful lady. But because of this fear you know, we were kind of, kept away. Don't go there. Don't go. She will take your daughters away. Oh my God! So, but we went for darshans or if there is some festival we would go and have darshan Radha Krishna, beautiful deities were there and you know, go and just take little Prasad. But that was our involvement. I mean, mostly it was still like same routine as Africa, that you know, you celebrate Diwali; you worship in home. At home we had nice temple with all the Gods and demi Gods and everybody on the Altar and my mom would do her Pooja everyday and you know, her offerings and things everyday. So all that has been there like from the very young age and. Did you have a family Guru? Yeah, in Africa like there was, we never saw anybody like. But when I came here, I, you know, we had, this Guru comes from Jamnagar and he became like a family Guru, that we were all given beads and we all followed the you know, rules and regulations and whenever they come, there is house programme organized and there is little Bhajan- Kirtan and Prasad and you know, everybody hears his discourse and things like that, yeah. Okay. And then what happened, how far did you go with your education then? In Uganda, here in London, I did my G.C.S.Cs, then my sister finished her G.C.S.C. two years, year before me and she found job in Bank of England, didn't she? So at that time we did not have much kind of, understanding of careers, advice or anything like that because there was not any guidance as such that you know. Now there is so much with connection and everything, children get so much support. But in those days, like oh, okay, you don't know what to do? My father like not educated at all you know, it was very difficult and for him it was different as well. But I think, he was you know, okay, he send my elder brothers to here and in India and they had good education. But for us, we stayed upto G.C.S.C and she got a job in Bank of England, so I thought, this is cool like, you know, you can get a job. At the age of sixteen I got my first job in Little Wood as Saturday Assistant. Okay. You don't know what is life. When you have some money coming in your pocket you want to dress up and do all this good things, like and then when I was seventeen I did some more, I mean, it was C.S.Cs and then G.C.S.Cs in those days. So I did another G.C.S.C, so I have got about six, seven G.C.S.Cs altogether. But I never thought of going for further education to do 'A' Levels anything, I just got a job in TSB Bank. Oh, did you? It was school like, just working in a bank, earning good wage. My dad did not take any money from us so we had nice time, just spending it on nice good clothes and just being, Londoners like all the make-up and clothes and you know, we were not allowed to go out much. So that was the all our joy, like to have friends, not even to have too many friends or you know, to go to cinema. If we have, want to go to cinema, we had to go with my sister or my dad would come with us or things like that. So we were not kind of, every much exploited to the culture. I mean, my dad would not even allow us to watch 'Top of the Pops.' Oh, okay. He was very strict. Yeah. And you know, you hear all this in school that, 'oh, this is number one and this is in the chart.' And you want to keep so secretly. Me and my sister would be hearing 'Top of the Pops' on the radio. But then, I got engaged, like when I was eighteen, you see. My first engagement, I got engaged because my sister kind of, had a boyfriend and she got married to her boy friend. So there was bit more pressure on me that now, you know, it is going to be me. I will be influenced by her and obviously she had to leave home and you know, get married secretly, my, this middle sister, you see. My elder sister had arranged marriage. Okay. So this second one was not an arranged one then, yeah? No, it was by her choice because she was like very smart you see and very beautiful as well and she made her own kind of, choice. And my elder sister, she is very happy, she is in Leicester, like she settled down with arrange marriage you know. They were propose, I mean, I had many proposals when I was fourteen-fifteen. So many people coming and I thought it was really strange and funny, like I would hide away, like when people say, "oh, so and so has come to see you like. Do you know them? And even now, when I see these people, I thought it was so funny, like you know in those days, at fourteen you know, sort of, so naive and you know gosh, I do not want to know these people. Why they coming here?' So yeah, I got engaged, first time I got engaged to my second eldest, Hamirbhai wife's brother because I moved here because there was like difficulty for me to stay with my parents. Because they was in lot of anxiety that I going to get somebody now, because my sister Lily you know, my middle sister got married to her husband Sudhir and you know, she, there was pressure that I might kind of, have something to do with a boy and I might run away as well and you know. So I was. So they arranged? Yeah, I moved here to stay with my, Hamirbhai, who was a Insurance Officer at that time and he had his own Insurance Office and Travel Agent. So I, he said come and work for me and stay with us, then you will have little bit of at least, you know peace of mind because my mom and dad could not, there it was lot of pressure for them, that now the, one daughter has gone, it will be another one and. They restricted everything too much and it was becoming too rigid. So I moved to Leicester, like obviously, there was lot of family kind of, difficulties there. So I came here and then I, my you know, sister-in-law's brother was regularly coming to visit her and I think, he fell for me, like he started fancying me and you know. I liked it as well at that age, like seventeen-eighteen you know, I felt very infatuated that you know, man is paying me attention and you know, we would go shopping together and it was nothing more than that. Because of my sister-in-law, she was pregnant you see, first, her first baby you know, the, Shraddha's mom, so she wanted to get all sorts of, her things organized for her baby and all, so he would come and take her shopping and all and we would travel together. And eventually they proposed because my mother-in-law sort of, searched out that these two like each other and they were looking for a woman for him. So they proposed if I like him and I was having lot of proposals by then, you see, some, about twenty years older than me as well like, you know, guys who were much older, like. And my dad said, he is not going to give me anybody who is so old. So they were very picky and choosy and my brother kept saying, there is no rush. Like you do not need to get married and you are all right and you are a bit young and. But you know, destiny has its time as well, so I got engaged to Vijay. And after a year, I mean, because we were not allowed to see each other before engagement, it was not proper, so he said better you get engaged if you really want to see him and then at least people can't point finger. I mean Leicester is a place, gossip is like hotcake you know, it just travels. So he said that you better get engaged. Then that will save name, otherwise whole Maher community is going to mingle and gossip. So we both got engaged and then we could at least freely go out to cinemas or town or what not, you know. So for a year we you know, got. Engaged. Knew each other and engaged and then I loved family, they lovely people and everything and you know, we settled down and after a year we got married and I moved, I stayed in Leicester, you see. You got married in Leicester, yeah? Yeah, I got married in London. Oh, okay. My mother-father were in London. We had a very simple marriage because Vijay did not want a Asian traditional marriage. So we got a Court marriage like just Registration marriage and had few families there and exchange rings and came home, had you know, meal and he brought me back to Leicester. So that was my first marriage, like I never had a fire sacrifice and from that time onwards I am in Leicester. I mean, eventually I had, you know I was living in extended family like I had, he had two brothers, two sisters and mother-in-law and father-in-law, we were living in Evington you know, big house four bedroom detached, semi-detached house. And after few months I got a job, like I worked temporary as a Dental Assistant you know, I did Maternity Cover and then after that I got a first job in De Montfort University, which was know as a Leicester Polytechnic in those days. It was a temporary Library Assistant job for a year. That was the beginning. That was the beginning of my library career. Then it became like a permanent post you see, so I got permanent post down there as a Library Assistant and from since then, I have been in library services. I did few years, then I had my son Shivraj and then afterwards I went back full time, my mother-in-law looked after him because it useful, like when we were in extended family, they were very supportive. And then I went back to work again and I had second child four years later you know, and then, with, after her I was going to go back part-time, but my mother-in-law was not very well, she had fractured her leg and also I could not return back to work. So I stayed home two years, taking care of everything and then after two years I was getting bit bored and tired of sitting at home and becoming housewife. I could not see that's me. So I kind of, started doing lot of courses, all these things I was telling you about my sister knowing about cutting and sewing and all. I, you know, went to Shama Women Center, which is big women center and I started joining sewing classes and cutting and dressmaking and also I learnt how to make Punjabi suits there and I started doing Choli, but I never finished it. And then I you know, what did I do, I learn swimming and so I used to go sauna with the ladies there and I mean, I could take Pooja with me because there was a crash facility. So for me it was an outing and you know, have a little. Also opportunity to see people, yeah. Different atmosphere yeah, so I enjoyed that. Then after that I went back to work about eight hours or so on Library Assistant in Public Libraries and I stated at, in Belgrave and I you know, I really loved it and ever since I am here in Belgrave, working you know, with the Asian community and I learnt more about cultures and religious you know, beliefs and everything in Leicester, when I came to Leicester. Because there is a lot here, where and my mother-in-law is you know, very religious. She used to practice a lot at home and she loved singing Bhajans and everything and I would be taking and bringing her back to hear different discourses and you know, giving her lifts everywhere and. So I became more a religiously inclined then and I started kind of, enjoying more Kirtans and Bhajans and understanding the lyrics and you know, sort of, understood Ramayana and Bhagvatam and all the rest. And I used to love Rameshbhai Ojha's you know, recital. Every time he would be here, I would be there listening because somehow or other, I had this real attraction for Krishna you see, from very young age. And eventually, I met with devotees when I was pregnant with Pooja. And I thought, ISKCON devotees you see, and I thought this really something you know, and I became really you know, sort of, interested. So I sort of, started hearing about Srila Prabhupada and I read books, I read 'Perfection of Yoga' a little, you know, thin book and I thought, this is what I sort of, want to find out more about. And I started going to Hare Krishna temple and this is when I was pregnant, I was going. But I felt very guilty, my, one of my aunty-in-law was a devotee and she and her husband brought me some literature or some cassettes, they gave me Prabhupada's Kripa you know, by Hari Om Sharan and Nandini, the first cassette I was listening about Bhajans. And then I said, "no, I do not want to come on Sunday because I eat non-veg and I feel guilty." And she said, no, I should come. But you know, they encouraged me and eventually, like I felt really happy going there. So I carried on after having baby, that was, you know, Pooja and every Sunday I went along. I gave up meat, I mean, I gave up meat when I was pregnant because it is like, you know, God's grace that, I was feeling very sick as soon as I smelt, onions, garlic and non-veg. So throughout my pregnancy, I had this sickness problem and it was Krishna's arrangement that he made it like that, for me to be sick you know, with my second child. But I gave up onions, garlic and non-veg, altogether. And I never took it back, like after that although my families were like, expect my mother-in-law, everybody was eating and I had to cook. But eventually, I would cook, but I would not eat it, I would make some vegetable for me without onions and garlic because I just could not handle it. And I got more and more involved and you know, it is like purely you know, mercy of devotees, where I felt very much encouraged and there were many senior devotees, who started kind of, taking care of my spiritual life there, you know, trained me in different ways and encouraged me and showed me how to chant and read and you know, sort of, I go involved in some making, you know, Prasad and cooking and got involved in some service of the temple. So I think, that was my sort of, new beginning of spiritual life. What did it give you the, what, you know, what was the difference between before and obviously going to the Hare Krishna temple? What did that give you more than what the other temples maybe did not give you? What was the difference? I think, in the other temples, like understanding is not so much. You do all these ritualistic ceremonies, but you do not know the meaning of it. People fast Fridays or Thursdays or Sundays or offer Aarti or some Bhajans or some Mantras, but you do not know what it is all. I mean, people say, "oh, you fast Fridays or you fast this or you do that." But it is more of a trend kind of, thing that you know, you just do it because your families have done, your mom has done, your grandma has done and you know, we have to do these things and we have to follow our Isht Dev and we have to do all these offerings and you know, all the rest. But it became all very clear you know, when I started reading Prabhupada's books, I read Bhagvat Gita and all the answers were there you know, about happiness and distress and the soul and the journey and you know, our ultimate goal of life and everything became very clear that you know, what is our position in this life you know, as a spirit soul, what we should be doing. So everything became very clear to me and you know, all the confusion of this big bubble started moving away like and I felt more happy. Otherwise you know, there was lot of unhappiness of experiences in life like you know, coming from Uganda and now I could talk happily to you. Previously I felt very distressed that you know, this journey was a bid, a big nightmare, so much insecurity, not knowing what is going to happen. But now, I just take it as a, sort of, okay, it was one experience where you moved on and you know, it was a destiny again and you know, I have no regrets, like as such. I have no hankering or lamentation that, I wish I was there. I am happy here because I have my you know, spiritual life established, I try and you know, keep up to it. I will, everyday I try to hear a verse or read something and I do my chanting and I have a commitment now that, it gives me lot of joy, I mean I have a Guru, I follow his instructions and I have lot of God brothers and God sisters and very many senior devotees, who even if I feel little distressed, I have a chat with them and it highlights and it kind of, really inspires me that you know, I want to be with people who are devoted and who are learned and who are there for me, to support me you know, in my journey of life. But in early days like, as I say you know, there was lot of restrictions. But now I feel like free that, you know, I don't scare, I do not fear anything, I am not afraid of anything. I mean, I was like, with my first marriage I was divorced when my daughter was three years old and I was single parent for ten years. I stayed alone and I only, I don't know how I managed that. As an Asian woman in Leicester city, it was very hard. But I honestly do not know. But I feel it is Krishna who is taking care of me all the time because I depend on him and he is there taking care of me. I mean, anytime I have some fear or worries or something, then I would sit and read or hear and I would feel very comfortable, that he is in, he is there, presence, he is my father who is looking after me and watching every step of me and he is guiding me, yeah. That he inspires me and you know, some or other arrangements are made that I would have some friend who is, when I was divorced, I had friends who helped me out because I had, my family all was in London and you know, in Indian families divorce is not readily accepted, that you should plod along your marriage through thick or thin, like you know, you should not leave because it is a name situation that you know, you are spoiling our name and that was there very much. But if you, you know, I sort of, was very unhappy later in life that, you know, I could not handle it. We both were kind of, we knew that we, not going to be happy together because he had habits of drinking and what not and I could not you know, I could not just bare it. I mean, he became really idle and you know, did not support family as he should be supporting me and my children. And I felt that, he is not doing his duties as a husband and as father and I have got lot of on me. So I might as well move on and do on my own. And I think, going to temple gave me more and more strength and encouragement and I survived through, with two young children and he and my children are now, they both kind of, in education properly situated, they both nice children so far and they both have got sort of, thing of career in their mind that they want to study and you know, at least have good you know, future and they appreciate my Krishna Consciousness. They are both Vegetarians. They will, they do not mind me going to temple. They both support me. I mean, up to now they used to come, but you know, now they have their own ideas, you see as well. And they are young adults so, they have to grow up as well. But eventually I am sure you know, they will have some inspiration as well. I mean, Pooja comes occasionally and she will help me in kitchen and she likes to come for Aarti and she likes to come and mingle with other youngsters there and you know. I do not have a complaint that you know, I do feel settled down and I am very happy here, yeah. What would you say is your, like daily routine or your weekly routine? What are your practices? My practice, my daily routine is like, I wake up and I offer Aarti and offer morning you know, little bit Prasad to Krishna. I have got a, Gaura Nitai deities and I have got Jagannath Baladeva Subhadra's deities and you know, all the Guru paramparas as well. So I offer you know, morning Aarti and then I will offer some Prasad and then I will do my Gayatri, because I have got second initiation as well. And I will you know, do my chanting in the morning, I mean, I would like to wake up much earlier, but it is difficult because I have a job as well. So whatever, like I wake up about five thirty before six and then I try to get little bit of my, half of my chanting done in the morning and then I will go to work and come back and cook again. Whatever I cook is all offered to Krishna. Everything we do in the house, everything is offered. So it becomes Prasad that you know, not eating sort of, non-offered food because whatever we do in our life, it should be done to serve Krishna, you see, not to serve ourselves. So having that belief, I will you know, do everything. I mean, I have to work to maintain my family and it is something you know, I am not a fulltime devotee, temple devotee. I am Grahasta, you know, in Grahasta Ashram. So you know, I would do all that. Then in the evening I will cook again and you know, have proper meal, which is offered and you know, we take Prasad and I will chant, I will hear a lecture or I will read Bhagvatam or Bhagvad Gita. I mean, I recently, I did a whole study of Bhagvad Gita. Every Sunday I was attending hour, couple of hours sessions in temple, you know, ISKCON temple and I finished studying Bhagvad Gita at Bhakti Shastri class. So now we planning to start 'Nectar of devotion.' So my, I know, aim is to kind of, study you know, scriptures seriously. And then Sunday, every Sunday I am at temple mostly, like most of the day, in the morning doing all the morning you know, routine down there and then in the afternoon go again and either cook Prasad and hear all the discourse and go and attend the Aarti and dance in the Aarti and mingle with other devotees there and preach to others, yeah. But in-between, when I am, sometimes at lunch time, if I have long lunch time, I will go for a walk and finish my chanting or I will go and visit temple because I am a Community Librarian, so I have advantage as well like that, that I go around different Community Centers promoting Library services and everybody knows that I am Hare Krishna devotee and people would kind of, somewhere or other I get opportunity to talk about Krishna's. And if I am going to Community Center or Old People's Home and they see my Kanthi Mala and they say, "oh, you are from Hare Krishna!" And then the, you know, these elderly ladies, they are very pious, they have their own Satsang groups and then I can talk to them about Krishna or invite them to temple or take them little Prasad, yeah. A more general question, do you feel that life is easier now than was thirty years ago then, with regard to just everyday family life and religious practices? Yeah, as far as religious practice are concerned, yes, it is much easier, right, because I have got established routine now and I know right what I am, what religious practice are? I have a clear understanding of God Consciousness and what, you know, we as a human being should be, as a Hindu should be practicing. In early days, it was a big cloud that there was no clear understanding as a child. There was, okay, Aarti there, Prasad there, but not knowing like, who is Krishna who is Rama, you know, who is Ganesh, Hanuman, why is all this festivals? There was not any understanding. As a childhood, I mean, you know, I had a very happy life there because you know, I was in a country where there was a natural environment. Here it is bit stifling you see, I mean, I would not want to be a young child in this country because there is lot of peer pressure of, everything has to be to the trend and designer and labeled and you know, there is lot of influence of other youngsters around, like about drug and alcohol and you know, clubs and all sorts of things going on. So you know, it is hard for youngster here. I mean, I worked with a community where I see quite a lot of Hindu children's totally messed up because they have families at home, who are practicing, not practicing any God Consciousness. They are so Westernized that, they have to, the belief is that, you have to eat meat to live in cold weather you see, and this is what children come and talk, that, 'oh, we cannot be vegetarian because my mom and dad say, we need to eat meat, otherwise we will be ill people.' And you know, all sorts of, this kind of, man-made rules are there by families, that they have this understanding that you have to survive in cold weather, we need to eat. But, I mean, I used to get chastised when my children and myself like, my daughter has been vegetarian from young age, from birth she has never eaten meat. But Shivraj and myself, like because Shivraj was thin young boy at the age of five, six and my, whenever I went to see my families or friends they will say, "oh, you should give him fish finger, you should give him sausages. Look at him, he is so thin because you are not giving him meat. You are depriving him." And I would tell them that, "no, he is not deprived. He is healthy. You know, you do not have to be fat to be healthy. He is healthy boy. And when he is grown up, if wants to eat he will make a choice. But at the moment, as a parent, it is my duty to guide him you know, that he should not eating these things." So you know, I am glad that I could manage that, yeah. Yeah. Do you feel then that the youth today are less religious? They are, youths are, they are looking, right, they are searching. But you know, they are finding some wrong association of some wrong Gurus coming or wrong movement coming and they go there. I mean, anybody could come up and say that, "I am a spiritual leader. I will guide you." And I know many groups like, which come and they try to say, "oh you do this, you do that and I am Bhagvan and I am, you know, I will sort your life out and you will be happy person." And people are taking to that. And then they get messed up. I mean, you know, I have heard so many cases where people feel messed up and depressed and confused and they lost that they, you know, because they let down. Because they are not joining the right spiritual you know, understanding and they are getting disturbed that, 'oh.' You know, there is an expectation, obviously when you are joining some movement or something or other or, you know, it is a natural human thing that, you are joining because you are in distress and you want to achieve something. At the end of it, you want to see the results, which is good. And when they do not get that you know, they feel really disillusioned and they come out worse than they were before, yeah. On a, that is kind of, on a religious level, but on a more kind of, cultural level, do you think it is important then for the youth to know their language or to keep some sort of, identity? Do you think it is important to learn their community language? Yes. I mean, in Leicester, there is an advantage, there is a lot for the youngsters, definitely. That you know, all these different Community Centers, you know, three, four big temples here, where the mother tongue language is taught. So I think, every child in Leicester, like you know, has an ability to speak mother tongue language and you know, our thirty-five percent, I think, is population of you know, Hindus here and it is quite a lot and there is a lot going on. So at that level, there is an advantage that communities are very ethnic and very much grouped. I mean, my children, both went to Rushymead School and they benefited lot, as a culture wise, because it was very favorable from their primary age that they were learning quite a lot on education grounds and they were you know, they had, they were aware of the culture definitely and you know, the youths are very much eager, like to do voluntary work in any community events. I mean, we see, even when we have Rath Yatras, we have so many volunteers who wants to come and help. When Rameshbhai Ojha comes or Morari Bapu comes, I mean, you have four-five hundred youths who are managing the whole show out there, like volunteering in different way, organizing the traffic and you know, car parks and in the tent and Prasadam and everywhere. So this kind of, you know, arrangements for youths is going on great because they are keen, they want to maintain there identity somewhere and they want to relate that, you know, this is our culture. So I feel that there is a lot here. I mean, I would say that, you know, sometimes we have in Asian, you know, from India, this religious leaders coming and they are very impressed. I mean, what I have heard from their discourses that, they really encourage youngsters and they you know, praise them, that they are much more inclined than youngsters in India. Because, I mean, in India it is changing that they want to be more westernized you see. So I think, compared to that, children here, who are youths, they are more kind of, you know, religiously or culturally aware that they want to see something about their community going on. So you know, at Diwali, at festivals and Navratri, Navratri every practical little and any hall or any corner kind of, school has a Navratri festival held and whole, everywhere it goes packed, over this last, twenty years or so I have been in Leicester, you know, I see this that children are so much geared up to go and dancing because it is their culture. They enjoy dancing and I appreciate that at least that they are going to dancing, which is a cultural dancing, instead of going to a night club somewhere, where they go you know, end up in some sort of, nonsense. Here they go, they, okay, they will go with girlfriends or boyfriends or they see other, but at that age it is normal you see, that will you want to dress up and you want be to attracted, you know, see somebody nice or look nice and feel good. Say De Montfort Hall, you know, this, so many this, Ramgharia, Prajapati, all the halls, where they cater for about three, two-three thousand you know, and is packed with youngsters. Yeah. And do you think then, they are doing these things as a cultural thing, do you think then in the future, they might start to ask the question behind then that? Yeah, I think so, yeah. I think so. I mean, they need some guidance and they are sincere. Children here are very sincere children. They are not like, crafty or cunning children, they are very sincere. They are you know, situated in a sort of, proper environment, all families are working and parents do work very hard to support their children's welfare and education. I mean, I, as a Librarian, I see parents you know, as caring. They are very you know, enthusiastic that their children have some education, both cultural and you know, education values as a profession as well. So that is kind of, there, element is there a lot, definitely. Okay. One or two final questions just to round it up. How do you identify yourself now, because you are, you know, Gujarati background, from East Africa, you have lived in the U.K. for so long, if somebody is to ask you, you know, who are you, where do you come from? What do you say, what do you identify yourself as? Well, I would sort of, say I am British Asian because like, you know, I am, I was born in Africa, I have had my upbringing mostly in this country and I am Asian, like by birth rights. I mean, by you know, family thing, but again I have, you know, I married an Englishman, who is Hindu like, who is again Hare Krishna devotee. So I would identify myself as a Spirit Soul like, I mean, I would not say I am Black, White or Asian. I mean, I you know, I have respect for all different cultures because I am in a movement where you know, there is, it is a mix movement and Prabhupada gave us you know, Krishna Consciousness. So I have no kind of, racist, discrimination against any cultures. But I am, you know, happily sort of, I would say I have no problem against British either. Because when we came in this country, I am indebted that British looked after us you know. And I think, we, you know, it is better that we came here. I appreciate that I came in this country other than going to India, because in India, I would have not had as much, maybe education because it would have been totally different. Because we did not learn Gujarati very much in early years of life and education would have been all Gujarati based. So we would have suffered at that age. In teenage life we would have be neither there neither here. So coming to British country we could, you know, at least now, I am a Senior Community Librarian where you know, I progressed in my career by working all these years in libraries. And I feel happy that you know, whatever it is, it is in my destiny and take it, you see, I cannot change it. So I do not have any hang ups about anything and just, you know, maintain my sort of, happiness like that in, you know. And where did you see as home then? At the moment I would say here. I mean, although I feel I would like to live in India but I don't know if I can survive living in India. Because it is a different set up. I mean you have to be an Indian person to survive in India. I mean, we have had life here, which is quite you know, cushy life. Like in a way it is comfortable that you know, we earn enough money to maintain ourselves and it is not possible for me and my husband and to move India at the moment because we will not get jobs there. We will not fit in the society. I mean, maybe when I retire, I keep telling my son that, I would like to live in India near temple there. Like you know, my Guru Maharaj's temple in Mumbai and live next to my God brothers and God sisters. But I don't know how practical that would be. I mean, I would miss, if my children are around here or wherever, I would miss that you see. But I honestly do not know really. I mean, I would not want to go back to Uganda because it is not something, which is called as safe you know, around there. But maybe, I am, just grow old in this country and stay here, but who knows. This will be your home. Yeah, I mean, more and more is, in another ten years, Leicester is going to be majority ethnic and you know, minority white. So I think, it will be like more home for more Asians here than anywhere else. And to travel to India is not a big deal from this country like you know. So I think, I probably would be traveling when I am, if I survive through my senior citizens life, than staying, I mean, I have this dream that I want to stay in India. But I do not know if I could manage to stay there you know, visiting is one thing and you know, staying there is a real austerity, you see. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. One final thing, because this is going to heard by future generations. Okay. God knows how long it will be stored for and we do not know who is going to be listening to it in the future, but have you got any final message that you would like to say to the people who are listening in future? Well, I would like to sort of, you know, give a message to people that, not to be disillusioned with life's experiences you know, take it as a journey in life because you know, body is changing light. He says in Bhagvad Gita that you know, when I was, when you are young, you are different person. When you are youth, is different and when you are you know, family person, is different and when you are old person, is different life. Because body is changing all the time you know. So like that, journey is changing in life and accept it and take it and you know, make your life happy, you see, instead of being miserable. Take everything in your stride, like you know, life is going to be happiness and distress and you know, sufferings and what not. But it does not stay forever. I mean, you know, like, so, the verse in Bhagvad Gita that, 'Summer and Winter seasons comes and goes.' So life is like that. I think if you have spiritual understanding and if people study Bhagvad Gita and practice it you know, it will support people very much how to survive your well, your living and your existence in this material world. Okay, Thank you very much. Thank you.