Hinduism, Religious experience 4th April, 2004 sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview Abhijeet Joshi 167 Shobha Nagpal Female Bijnor, U.P.

Glasgow U.K. Master of Arts, half of B. Ed Retired EN Hindi, English I just like to start off the interview with a little bit about your family background and if you could tell me where your parents were born? You know the names of the towns, villages where they were born? Well my, I won't be able to tell you where exactly my parents were born but of course originally from India. My father was from the U.P. side, which is Uttar Pradesh and my mother from Punjab. And I think my father was born in place called Merut in Uttar Pradesh and I was myself born and brought up in India and came. Where were you born? I was born in Bijnor a small town again in Uttar Pradesh U.P. Because yeah, in U.P. because you see my father was doing a job where he was transferred from one place to another within the U.P. area. And that is not, how you know so we spent most of our time in Uttar Pradesh area. So it was at Bijnor where I was born. Okay. What did you say your father's profession was? Your father's profession. He was actually a principal of a Government college teaching side. Okay, so that's why he. That's why. Moved around. Yeah. So what was life like for you then? Was that a town or village or what? Both mixed depending on where his postings were. Some times small places right? Rather remote area, the other time the center of town so that in to some extent had an, you know effect on our education and so on. Because my father very nice person of course he is no more but very strict in certain ways as well. Co-education was disapproved at that time and I remember it had an effect on my education at one point because one small place where we were you know and he didn't allow us to go in a co-education that was exactly in a school but any way, still I did not too bad. Okay and did you have brothers and sisters? Yes all together we were seven at that time four brothers and three sisters. So big family. Yeah, big family yes. And where did you come in the scheme of brothers and sisters? Were you the eldest? Well actually three brothers first then three sisters and a brother and among the sisters I am the oldest one. So I was the first girl in the family after three boys. So you are a nice. Yeah. So can you tell me just a little bit I mean you mentioned your schooling and how you had to move around and things like that and can you may be mention just a little bit about your life for child growing up in India both in the town and in the village? What is some ways because naturally, in some ways naturally there are lovely childhood memories. Things of course over there first of all sort of many years ago and I things were different and over here naturally they are different. Some very good memories are there it was a different kind of atmosphere, going to schools and colleges when you compare with this country system is quite different and all that. And although when you come to it, I mean these days there are lots of luxuries and things like that which we take to you know granted. Which are more or less necessities for us at that time those were the luxuries? Like what for example? Well to start with initially for example you know there was no television we know that. Refrigerator things like that and I know especially as my childhood at that time even the electricity, which is just a common thing. I remember those little oil lamps or you know the gas lamps type of things we use to sort of light up and you know I can recall, come sort of dusk time when every body so many little lanterns and lamps are. So such a important thing, water for example, right, we are so used to having nice water in your taps all over and so on. At that time in certain places where I was, women would go to the wells to you know bring out the water. So I still have those memories. And your family too have to go to the well and. Well, but on one hand we were, I suppose one of the lucky ones we had servants. Okay, yeah. So we didn't have to do that ourselves. Yeah. And so we were in a very-very but there were people and again it had to be brought you know from there and even when certain places when they you could get water from taps, still there were limitations for the water. It will only come you will get water from 10 and till say 12 o'clock day time and same thing it two hour in the evening, so things like that. So these are as I said it those are the necessities of life and, but you know, we are so used to over here and you could called them at that time luxuries but still lovely memories Okay and have you been back to the village that you born in? Not to the village, no, back had been back to India number of times but some how the way things have happened and now unfortunately my parents are no more so I would not really know exactly the location and so on. And do you have any other relatives still there that you visit or? The place where I was born no. Well anywhere just in India. But in India yes, you see most of our relatives are there. Actually we don't really have any relatives. There is a distant relative here. Apart from that they are all basically in India but and also in other countries. My daughter is in America, my sister is in America, brother is in America things like that. International family. As far as, International family but as far as the immediate other relatives are most are in India so we do visit regularly. You do, okay. What's it like for you to go back and see the changes you know obviously since you left India? While, it's actually fantastic. You look forward to going. On one hand you made your life here. I have been here in this country over 42 years I, and of course this is your own country and so on but at the same time your links are there, your roots are there and to meet up the people these days after retirement now I am retired we go every year. So there is a, whereas when our children were young naturally we use to go every year, the year or something like that and it is wonderful. Even the atmosphere is a different, shops are different, surroundings are different and there is some thing that little bit we enjoy. Pulls you back every year? Absolutely. And can I just move on a little bit and just ask you, and you know when did you decide to come to the U.K. and what were the circumstances for your moving? Well, I won't say that I decided as such. On one hand I know you know they were always used to say our look I like to go a foreign country or some thing like that. Actually I came here after marriage. Okay. I got married in 63. My husband was living here and he came here for further studies and then of course he got a little job so he went to India and you know we got engaged and within two, three weeks I came over here. So was he from India also? Yes. Okay and what was he studying if you don't mind me asking you? Mechanical engineering. So he had done a basic you know qualification and I think he was doing his you know advance AMI Mech.E Institute of Mechanical Engineers or some thing like that. Yeah, so then you got, do you get related job then? That's why. So then what it like for you then? I presume it was an arranged marriage. Yes it was. Had you met him before? No, no it was such a brief I mean actually saw him only from a distance. Yeah. And I was actually the next morning was my exam. Okay. And suddenly what happened was I was studying, my parents said look this family is there and so on. So in a room on one side his parents were there and on the other side my parents were there. So I saw him from a distance but my I didn't take it seriously that this is where I am going to get married. Yeah. Because my mind was more on studies. Yeah. The next thing was I went to bed about midnight. My mother woke me up and she said well look we are both happy they are both happy, you know his parents are happy, what do you say? Yeah. So it was a shock. And basically was you see we were born and brought up in an environment, a situation that married, marriage is so sacred, it's for life and we accepted very willingly whatever parents decide. So my reply was well, look if you think he is okay, it's okay and that was it and it took us only three weeks and we got married. Three weeks, Wow! So did he go back to England, did you follow after or did you stay? Well actually he stayed because all together I think he had another two weeks time. So, basically or three weeks after, right, he immediately, at that time things weren't as difficult to get the Visa and things like that. So he immediately went to Delhi and so on and arranged for my Visa. And so our parents were also very keen that I sort of go back with him. And, and so on. So how did you feel then? I don't know, had you been to the U.K. before then? No, no this was the first, actually not only U.K. first time abroad. Really. Yeah. So I mean you must have heard the things about the U.K. and stuff. So between hearing things and you kind of having an idea about what it's like and then actually arriving here and then seeing. Can you tell me just a little bit about all the emotions and? Well it was, it was. What was in your mind at that time? You see as far as emotions well, it's mixed feeling. Lots of reservations. On one hand not only coming to U.K. which was three and a half thousand miles away but and not only where different language and all this kind of saying as also, but going within and you don't really know him. Right? So the feelings were there wherein you know I hope everything is fine. And I remember at one point somebody did say to me, "O! I hope that your parents done the right thing, they don't even know the background about him" and you know and my reply was well look wait a minute if you wanted to say something you should have said it before we got married. In any event I am sure it'll be fine and so because this is the way sort of we were born and brought up and so on. So naturally there were mixed feelings but you see we were told. I you know, the school of, look you get married first and fall in love later and you've got to work at your marriage all right? There has to be given and take and as long as you work towards it you know, no reason why it should not succeed. So once you go, come with that sort of thinking I suppose things become somewhat easier. I won't say that life is always you know, I won't say that we don't have any arguments and disagreements but he is a lovely man and I'm very happy. Yeah. Can I just ask you, I didn't ask you what you were studying at the time? Well I actually had done an M.A. Master of Arts degree already. I was studying for B. Ed, Bachelor of Education. Okay. Right? And I had actually done my, you know theory I had passed in my theory. There were used to be two, two types of exams there. And still practicals had to be done but because I got married and parents wanted for me to come. They said after marriage no, you just go within. So I could not complete my B. Ed but otherwise I am still M.A. and half of B. Ed. Okay. So tell me about when you first touched down on the U.K. Did you come to London or? Yes, London. Okay. And what was it what, what, what did you think of the place when you first arrived. Was it summer or winter when you came? Winter. Winter okay. Actually it was 1963 winter and I don't know whether of course you weren't here at that time even, you know I am sure you weren't even born. Right? And it was extremely cold winter. And they were all saying we haven't seen this kind of winter for sort of so many years ago. It was very, on the other had we were told that it will be very, very cold and so on. So I remember sort of lots of snow all over, this was the first time I had seen snow, I had heard of snow. So it was all quite you know. I remember my mother used to tell me when this snowfall is there, we used to ask her, "do you get hurt, do you get hurt from the snow?" These were the things and again here, here we saw it and it was quite nice but cold. And so did you settle in that at that point. Was that your husband was--? No actually he was at that time based in Manchester. So we flew to London and from there we went to Manchester because he was working there. And how long did you stay in Manchester? About seven years. Then from there we moved on, we went to Coventry for, four five years or actually he was working in Rugby, which is close by so we were there. And from England we came to Glasgow in 1974. So what was the, I mean Manchester was it much of a Hindu community at that point. Was there anything? At, at that point there wasn't much to he honest. And not only Hindu community even Indian community there weren't really lots, lots of people at that time. There were very few people. And odd numbers and you know then so on and it was nice to see, if you see any brown face we used to feel because naturally that was home. And the things were so different so not many. So how was it for you to buy you know just the basic spices or you know even may be, Puja articles and flowers and? Well at that time it was difficult. There were some shops but not many. Things were much more expensive and even the articles sometimes you had to travel a long way you know and so on. But as the time by surprising you know, how quickly the things have developed and were even sort of even when you are talking about the Indian restaurant fine there were hardly any. And I remember once we were in living in Coventry and we wanted to go, we drove down to Birmingham asking here and there and there was one and you know so, very few. Was there any sort of Hindu temple or Hindu, Hindu community gathering then in Manchester? There were but not much, not much and you see first of all you see not many people you know and again you see then we also have our children much smaller, right when they. So we didn't have that much time either. So there used to be gathering, some small events may be a big you know a festival is being celebrated odd ones but not on a regular basis. So how was the life then in Glasgow? You moved, did you say it was 1974 in 74'? '74 I moved in Glasgow. Once again children were smaller at that time, they much younger and so although I've been doing voluntary work for last 20-25 years but I was not attached as much to the temple side because you see the life I was working full time you know an house wife and small children we don't have as much time and so on. And I was more into other things as well. Where, where were you working as you said? I was actually in the civil service in the DSA's benefit agency now called. So I was. Was that in Manchester as well or? As well, yes over there. So when you came there? Well not Manchester in Coventry yeah. Okay. So can you may be tell me a little about how the community developed in Glasgow because you, you know been here for such a long time you can may be tell me a little about the history? Well, naturally in Glasgow, naturally there is mixed community. There are a quite a lot of Indians, quite a lot are Sikhs and so on and even you know among, among the Hindus they are from the different parts of you know India. There are some Hindus from Mauritius, some Africa as well quite a lot have come from there. How did you say, how it was developed? Yeah. How it, how did you know did you get this big place you know? Yeah, you see there was a, was a temple many years ago. There was a small Grange George. It was in a small house. Now at that time I was very little, you know I was not as much involved at that time because children were smaller right, younger you got more, you know. But eventually what happened was and that has happened in lots of people for the community. Basically, we even that temple was bought by the community and I think the credit goes to many other women and I will not take credit to that one because I was not part of it. I remember there was no money. Some women, and I think they are still some here and some women they would go, do their Bhajan and Kirtan house to house. Right? People put some donation, they will collect that money, they used to call it Kirtan money right? And then they opened an account. Gradually they opened it up and so on. They raised money and eventually was some other donation came and eventually they bought a premises. And that premises appreciated in price, a small premises only. Then I think at one time initially they bought a church or something. Then they bought another one, another one so that is how they build up some cash. So I think the credit goes to all these women who did a awful lot of work. They would not only go Hawan and Kirtan you know they would do Hawan as well and because we though Hindus we are very-very religious minded and Hawan is also a very-very important part of our Puja and you know all that and we often get Hawan done lots of special events. You are moving to a new house you will get Hawan done, somebody's birthday, so these ladies used to go from house to house right. And that is how they were raise money, fund for the temple and eventually that is how it all came about. So, and then finally they ended up? Finally, finally this building we moved in here in 1996. So I have been involved in and out you know, you know well before that time and so on. Can you tell me about how your involvement has, has changed then over the years. Tell me a little bit about what you do? Well on one hand as I said I've been involved keeping the culture and traditions alive. My initial involvement came from say for example Indian culture, music and dance. That actually started in nineteen more or less 1970 or '75 soon after coming because we you know set up a little organization "Asian Arts Association" and we started giving I know called a teacher from India, lessons on Indian Kathak dancing and, and you know Bhangra and so on. And my daughter at that time was pretty young she was interested in it. So naturally I used to take her and then of course a association was formed up and so on. So my involvement initially was you know. Was on the cultural side? Cultural side more and that developed quite a lot and I have still been continuously since 1974-75 one way or the other. So now naturally for the religious side as well because I got, got involved. Because on one hand Hindu culture and religion and tradition they all go hand in hand, you cannot separate the two. So now naturally I've got a lot more time. Because initially I took early retirement you know few years ago. Now I am completely retired so this is it. And I think it's very, very important in order to you have got to give some time and there has to be some dedication. And there are lots of dedicated people you know and on the basis of that these organizations run and same thing is with the temple. Over the years have you ever experienced any kind of racism or prejudice because of your either Hindu identity or the color or any thing like that? You see if you are honest with yourself, yes, it is there it does exist if I say personally I where either where I've been lucky or probably whether you might say you know how to handle I don't know I haven't really experienced as such. But because I have been involved with so many organizations so I have seen lots of incidents right. Experiences of different people and so on, which tell you yes it does exist. So I don't I mean on one hand I have directly not but some times when you see even you are working in jobs and so on certain things are so discreet. I have learned to ignore certain things as well. Where are probably people from the modern day and society they might not ignore certain things right. Those who are born and brought up, their views are a little bit more you know why we are not any different? So maybe it's a question of your own you know how much you can tolerate. Yeah. And bear and so. I think it depends on that as well. Varies. Yeah. But it does exist. Yeah. I want to just ask you about religious practices when you told me that you are both into the community which is also just for yourself personally and your family. I mean did you come from a deeply religious family yourself? I won't say "deeply" religious but very religious family right. And my father and mother both they had a temple in the house. A small room was you know dedicated for all this thing and regular worship, Puja morning and evening and so on and. But still I will not call them "deeply". Those who are deeply there is a lot more. So of course you see there was lot of emphasis on the family life. And which I, you know we believe Hinduism is a sort of we say way of life any way. So that sort of emphasis rather than pure devotion. There was a mixture of that. Okay. Are there any traditions that your family have had that you've maybe kind of joined yourself from coming to the, you know after coming to the U.K. Just traditions, you know the forms of worship that you do you know the Aarti or the certain Bhajans that you sing that are passed down or something. Well you see certain basic traditions yes. But a lot more, not a lot more, the reason is because I have been so involved, full time work and for some time you see depends on your mind, your time you can only devote to certain you know things because even now I am so involved in basic other things also. I am member of God knows how many organizations so naturally then you have got to cut down on the other things. Do the basics and so on. So basics are first thing early in the morning daily shower and bath and you must prayer, you do the light. I've got a little temple in my house, so those things are there. But not to sort of extreme nature. Okay as you said that you do the Puja everyday and what about a family Murti or? Sorry? Your family Murti that you've worshipped. Well I won't say that any particular Murti or any particular God or Goddesses, I basically to me right, what do Hindus believe in? We believe in there's only one God. That Supreme Being who controls whole universe and of course there are three physical representatives, Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh. You know Brahma, the creator, preserver and the destroyer, right. And the others are all you know part of it kind of the incarnation. So I know some people have a particular one. In my little temple I have all. And that is how basically in this temple also as you can see we are all. So I will not say that I am a particular devotee of one particular one. To me they are all the same. And different times, different festivals I do you know pray to all of them. Okay. And what about family Gurus? Who are, in our case I won't say there is any family Guru as such. Because I think there are certain very-very you know special rules and restrictions apply as far if you have a Guru and something and I don't think I you know have, well time and so on, my involvement is so much to you know follow those strict rules and so on. I never have really sort of come across anybody where I would really feel that I would liked him or her to have as a Guru. Although I met quite a few you know high priest and so on. I have great regard and respect for them. I do listen to them but no. Okay and what about, have you ever had any Swamis or Gurus to come to visit you home either in India or here? Oh yes. Quite a few time. Even quite a few Swamis and Gurus when they come here, if possible, again if possible because my life is very busy. Right?? And I, when they come to the house you really feel good right. And again there is a, in our you know, Hindi and Sanskrit scriptures, somewhere it is said. Right?? Because we believe in reincarnation, you never know in what form God will come to you, you know to your place. Right? And to us guest is also like God so you do respect and that is why specially these Gurus and you know and these Swamis and so on and I think you, I really feel good if they step in the house and you get some sort of vibration and feeling, really very happy. Okay. You've seen this question already but what do you feel actually makes you a Hindu? What is it that makes you a one, a Hindu? Well on one hand make you a Hindu I don't know because see on one hand you are not made into a Hindu, you are born and brought up into a Hindu. Right? Because in Hinduism by birth, right? Nobody cannot convert anybody and so on and I am proud of it. Certain philosophies, thoughts, behind and all that it just make me feel and I am, basically I am proud. On one hand I feel does not matter, God is all one. Which religion you are following, right? What type of practice you do is all one. That person controls the whole universe. So but whichever faith you follow, but still there are lots of things about the Hinduism and I am very proud of it. And what about values and beliefs that you just live your everyday life by? There are you know Hindu ways but just part of your everyday life what are those? Well Hindu, basically is, they say Hinduism is a way of life. Right? Emphasis on Karma, duty, right? And basically is as you sow socially you reep. And I think it's very-very important. And again the scriptures, the theory of reincarnation basically that's what it is. The body dies, but the soul within it never, you know dies. It leaves the body and there is a life. You know circle of birth and rebirth is going on. And if you keep on that basis and again as you know according to Hinduism some people believe you are rewarded or punished on your, basis of your actions, either in the previous life, the others say you are punished, rewarded in the present life. So I believe, I think it is very-very important. So to follow Hinduism you don't, it's not necessary that you have to say prayers so many times a day, you have to do Puja as long as emphasis on Karma. You do your duties so I, and really I with inside, and that is why as I said I do follow my religion and everything. I won't say I am very-very religious minded that means so many hours because my time is so precious, I spend all over but I still call myself religious and so on. But the most important thing is to lead a life which is honest, do good deeds as much as you can, help others as much as you can and help and support maintenance of our culture, religion as much as you can so basically that is what I do. Okay. At the end of it all then you, you know you've led this good life, encouraged other people's to lead this good life. What do you feel is the goal of it, the goal of all you know what happens when you die? Ah! What happen when you die? Well first of all I still believe in there is you know what you call it? Heaven and Hell. Right? Although some people say Hell is on the Earth and depending on you know so on. So I do believe there is, if you look from the Hinduism point of view, right? The ultimate aim of a Hindu is to obtain Nirvana, freedom from the cycle of birth and rebirth. I will not class myself that I will ever be able to because you know although I think I do, you know try to do lots of good things and so on. And well this is, you know like you are here you've got to go sometime as long as, what I would like to see as long as I do some good things. So when I go people have good memories about me rather than any bad points. Having said that, I'll be honest with you, I won't say that I don't have any bad points, I'm sure I have like everybody has but my efforts are that I should be doing some good things so people remember me by that. Okay. Do you think it's important for Hindus to do charity work or you know service in community. I mean you obviously do that yourself? Well I think so. I think so. But the only thing is you see I don't think you can force anybody. It has to come from within. Right? And I think to my way of thinking it is part and parcel. Now look at this temple, it's running on the basis of charity work. Dedication, devotion you know by lots of people and if you don't do that there is a position will come and stand still. So I think it's very important. Next question it's a, it's a strange question, it's a personal question. You don't have to answer if you don't wish to. But have you ever had any religious, you know deep religious experience or spiritual experience at any point in your life that you can tell? Well on one hand I won't say the real deep one no and so on. Any, once I remember, I mean, whether you call it religious experience or not, often when I, there are always, often situations in your life when sometimes you can't decide what is right and wrong and I know, I've had two or three occasions when I have got that sort of situation and you know I puzzled and so on. You are a little bit tensed thinking what is right and wrong. I go to sleep with the thought and a few times it has happened that I, suddenly something comes to my mind, this should be the solution and I have followed that and the solution has worked and on one particular incident I even saw a little sort of image of one of the Goddess. Right? And I, the feeling I got inside well look I am being directed by the Goddess. Whether that was right or wrong, whether you know whatever thoughts I had unconscious, in my unconscious mind, might be. So I don't know you could call it a, you know so on and I won't call it a miracle or anything. But I do know often these things happen and it helped me. They helped? Yeah. What about the youth of today? Do you feel that they are more or less religious than say when you were a youth? Again it's a bit difficult. Specially over sort of in this country. Because again it you know it's a question of how much they are exposed to and all that. Again we would like youth to be involved lot more with the temple. There are some two, you know youths who are you know involved with the temple and so on. Our problems are because we have got to create right atmosphere, right surroundings from, for them which at the present moment we don't have them you know. So we would like to see over here sort of community center as well as a temple. You know so you've got to create an atmosphere. Youth of today, specially in this country our children born and brought up here, first of all there is language problem. Right? Unless they understand how will they appreciate it? How will they become more you know. So we feel again culture, tradition and religion go hand in hand? So you've got to create that. Okay that was going to be my next question was the importance of learning your mother tongue. Yeah. Do you feel that, is it important? I think it's important. Having said that important, how practical it is very difficult as well. I remember when you know, I've got two children, our daughter was born, our initial thoughts were, we will teach her Hindi. It's important to have mother tongue. Now again bearing in mind so many years ago you know and hardly any Indians were here at that time. We started talking to her in Hindi language but then we had couple of doctor friends who told us, "No don't make a mistake". If you are going to do that in this country English is more important to learn, the child will get confused and we dropped the idea. Since then we never regretted. Now the difficulty is both our children of course you know they have got the English and Scottish accent, they understand Hindi but of course speaking apart from broken words and so on they can't. And again when they were young we ourselves didn't have much time because full time you know working mother and so on and at that time there weren't really arrangements also. So I think it is important, but not as easy, but we have a small Hindi school running here in the temple and again it required resources, time and every thing and often we have lack of it. And what about, I don't know if it's relevant today, but you can tell me how it's affected here the community here, the Caste system, does that still play a role at all? What do you feel? Well Caste sys, well not now really basically because it's been frowned upon any way. On one hand on paper yes, you are from this caste and that still because you are born in a caste. Right? And otherwise I don't think there are many people who would sort of follow it out. Okay. Do you think it's important for Hindus world wide now because I mean, so spread out, now this community is all over the world. Do you think it's now important for them to start, because initially everybody went outside you know. Do you think it's important for them to start now linking up and you know making connections again you know to see what different communities are doing and to start building the bridge back together again rather then just spreading out like keeping in contact you know like it happen here-- Well I think it is important. It is you know very important linking and connecting and all that but again because, from my personal point view. I am so busy in so many things and so on and I can't otherwise you know, spread my wings lot more then it will be difficult to handle. But otherwise just straightforward answer I think it is important. Okay. Couple of final questions now. How do identify yourself now? I mean you've lived in the U.K. for such a long time, but you are from India, your family is you know growing up here, you've lived in the U.K. for such a long time, you are a Hindu what, if somebody is to say who are you? What first thing is that, would you say? I would say I am a British Indian. I won't say Hindu because to me on one this is just a faith I follow but we are from India. Right? I am proud to be British as well because I have taken British nationality, I have lived in this country for so long and I don't think we should forget that. Same time in my roots, I don't want to forget them either. So I would say British Indian, so I would say British first because you know, yes Okay. And where do you see as home then? Well, home is here, because having lived here for so long, children, because our son is settled here in London, daughter is in America basically they in the west and so on. Although when we go to India we still call it we are going home to India. Right? So although on one hand we are lucky there are sort of two homes but our immediate family is over here so you are putting sort of, yeah. Okay. And then, finally then just finish off the interview, do you have any final message to give to people who would be listening to this in the future? It could be, you know any future generations or people doing research and? Well, all basically future generation whatever I'd say, I think is very important not to forget your roots. Not to forget your culture and traditions, I know it is difficult but some time this is a heritage and I think is you now and not only in our Hindu religion is, in India also so rich in culture, tradition and so on that you'll be ashamed if you forget about it. So whatever you can do and get your children interested in that as well. Because it will be ashamed if you forget it so that's what I am saying. Okay. Thank you very much.