Hinduism, Karma 6th February, 2004 sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview Abhijeet Joshi 168 Sureshkumar Gohil Male Nairobi, Kenya

Gower Street

Leicester U.K. B.Sc Physics and Maths Business EN Gujarati, Hindi, English I just wanted to start off a little bit with your family background and specifically where were your parents born, were they born in like same villages or if you can remember the names and things like that, if you can tell me a little bit about that? Basically, my parents obviously have Indian origin. Father was born in India and my mother was born in the Mozambique. They were married; she was married at the age of thirteen and I have got a very large family, seven sisters and five brothers. So, my father came to Africa, to Kenya specially when he was around thirteen fourteen years of age. I was born in Kenya in Nairobi and I grew up there until 1970 when I went to Uganda to pursue my studies in B.Sc Physics and Math's. Okay. You said your father was born in India, did you mention what state? He was born in Gujarat. He comes from a small town near Porbandar, which is a part of Gujarat state, it is called a Rana Vaav, a Vaav representing a well and my mother's origins are from another place near Jamnagar, again in the state of Gujarat called Bhanwar. So these are the villages by which we are known. Okay, and when your father moved to Africa did he move with his whole family or was it just a few of them went or? Yeah, I think when he was obviously born in there my grand father came up to Africa. So he was obviously brought him over and then he had a few trips to India at that time but things were that was develop your own lifestyle. So he was a tailor by profession. And then he worked in to the land and estate business, which we lost out in '59 through partnership and lost the empire that was created. So yes, from rag, riches to rags in no time and he go through the whole lifespan, understanding what richness is, what artificial friendship is, what relationship is and when the situation changes to something, which is not very favorable, give it the name of poverty then how the artificial world disappears. We see a lot in the movies, we read about in the books but when you experience it personally, I think you become much richer and bit more wiser and that was a wonderful lesson that put, the family had to go through to understand what is God and how he places you in situations of different extremes and enables you. So then this is how it started. So he had gone through a lot of hard life because he was thrown from one place to the other and he lost his mother when he was only eight or nine years of age. So my grandfather got married again, so he was a stepson and like anything else it was not easy for him to be accepted by the stepmother. So he had a larger family, his brothers and mothers, sisters who came from the second mother, but being the eldest in the family he stuck to his duties and got married, then were the children one after the other. So it is a very large family with the seven sisters and five brothers and I am in the middle I am the seventh. You come through lot of experiences because, my father was obviously giving his wisdom of what he knew and brothers and sisters, my elder brothers and sisters managed to learn what they thought, they had picked up. I think I was very fortunate being middle in the family I got best of all the worlds. I picked up say, specialty in the Gujarati language, which is my mother language from my sister who is very religious and she taught me what the rituals are. Then my eldest brother was looking after my education side, he used to take pains to sit down and ensure that we learnt, we had very high aspirations. And, my another brother who was very much interested in music and sports. So where they did not have the opportunity, I managed to pick up the good qualities. Then develop my own personality. So I think in that sense I was very fortunate. So I had the education, which the others could not or did not have for various reasons and went through life, understood the beauties of life and in '69, in 1970 then went to Makerere University where I graduated in Physics and Math's. Okay and did you say you were born in Uganda? No, I was born in Nairobi, Kenya but I did my graduation, I spent three years in Uganda. So I was actually present at the time of the exodus when President Amin who was ousting all the non-Africans, the Indian and the English people. So, I was actually present there and it was not a very good experience. Yeah, I want you to, I want to come back to that, I want you to tell a bit about that because that is quite a important part of history. But before that what was life just like growing up in Nairobi itself? Okay, if I mention when I was a young child because I have got some very vivid memories at age of five. I first went to India when I was five years of age on a holiday and then my eldest brother got married. So I can remember those incidences very clearly and thereafter you are going in schools and we were very rich because then my dad had developed with partnership into land and estate. At that age of five we were getting some pocket money, which is equivalent to about five pounds a day, in the present age so you can imagine rolling in riches and cars and inevitably when there is lot of money, relatives come in, friends come in and my eldest brothers and so forth were enjoying life. We used to have about fifty-fifty guests each weekend for those ravishing parties. And then I had pocket money, I used to take friends out to see movies and enjoy life. But I was very happy to do my studies and I was very fortunate that my sister and my uncle who were staying with us gave me the religious background, the ability to see the two things and not to get influenced by money. So, I think ever since young age religion was inculcated and the values were taught. So when we lost out the empire through to deceit and partnership, we lost everything. So where my eldest brother had, say twelve pair of shoes a time came when between three brothers and the father for four adults there was one pair of shoe. We had tremendous Persian carpets and those things, in the '55s, those had to be sold. A time came when for six months there was no water, there is no electricity and there is no food and I and my brothers used to wait for the rain to come in the season so, I used to stand at the bottom of the pipe, have our bucket, fill it up give it to my other brothers and my eldest brother would put it in the tank and we use that water for cleaning. And for the God's grace for six months we managed then we have give the house away because it was mortgaged and go and look for a tenanted property. And the situation was such that when one brother got the job, the other lost his job and then my sister had to give up her education to obviously try and feed and times were hard with a very big family and we were all youngsters. Again I was fortunate that my education was not interrupted. I managed to get the grants to and I get good results and as such, I virtually did my 'O' levels and 'A' levels with grants. I did not actually experience poverty, although we went through all these things because you do not think of the situation as being poor or rich, in hindsight I was actually living in the now. And in this last few years that I actually realized that what we are reading and realizing about life at this moment, I was already doing it subconsciously when I was a young child. So by giving and surrendering to the divinity, he used to create the atmosphere for me to live and I was not aware but it was life and you enjoy your life without worrying about the life, without worrying about the family things all fell in to places and there was the advantage of surrendering to the divine force. So when you grow up you had to live within your means and I excelled in sports, I was appointed, was given the award for the sportsman of the year in the school for two years running. Then I was excellent in schooling, sporting facilities, where I captained the Kenya cricket side in '68, and I captained most of the other sporting activities, I played cricket at a high level for the Kenya Cricket Association and I was pretty good in volleyball, football, hockey and so forth and also reasonably good in the academics. So, got good grades and then I taught for one year, I wanted to become a pilot. So when I had an admission in the Leicester, in the Nairobi University for engineering, I said no, I want to become a pilot so I would rather wait. So I did not accept the position in the university and worked for an year and I taught in a private school. The concept of a private school in Nairobi was that not the private school that you are having over here that you pay lot of money, it is meant for the bright students but students who had failed in their preliminary school and could not get education had to go to a private school, pay the fees and learn and obviously the standard was very poor. So I taught English and Geography and Math's and I produce forty percent pass grades where the children had never even passed, so it was a wonderful achievement. Because you pick up these values from your teachers and you pass it on to the students and then I got an admission in the Makerere University to pursue my degree in Physics and Math's. I went there in 1970 and life was fun because you are studying, the main purpose was to graduate because I would have been the first graduate in the family, live within the means because every three months I had an equivalent of three hundred shillings which is now equivalent to three hundred pounds and I had to have, because we were Kenyans, we would not get the full grants and because I was brown the government would not give the full grant for the University. So all I managed to get was the grant for the accommodation and the school fees but I had to make my own means, for traveling for pocket money, for books etc., which if I was an African I would be paid. So although I was a Kenya citizen you were a second-class citizen. Ugandans on the other hand irrespective who they were, were given the full package. So lot of the students were actually saving money to take home. So, within my means, within the holidays that we had I used to work for the Minister of Education, they created a job for me, which was being a statistician and you pick up those things, save the money and go back to the university to pursue your career. I used to take up a lot of part in the dramatic activities, was the president of the Indian society called Bhartiya Sanstha and when I went on the chair we had a wonderful function, which was arranged a party and I produced a booklet with through them, aids and it was a great success. So it is very innovating so while you are involved in the scholastic things you also take part into the cultural activities and add values and by that time obviously, president or main head decided in 1972 that anybody who was not an African should leave. So being a Kenyan at that time, a stage came when Kenyans were supposed to leave the university as well and then the government decided that know the fault and they agreed that okay as long as we got our identity cards the Kenyans; brown Kenyans could stay. So we had to wait for three days to get our identity and three days, day in day out, they used to start at about seven or eight o'clock in the morning close at seven o'clock at night. And the soldiers who are illiterates, they could not speak English; they could not speak Swahili which was the main language because they spoke what we call the local language, which was the Bugandas and they were very, they were ruthless. So even the Uganda citizens, the Asians had their passports torn because they were exempted but he says, no you are brown so, you do not need to be here so they used to tear the passport, says, get lost. So, it was very traumatic and we wonder whether we will be able to complete our studies or not. So 19th October '72 was the 'D' date and because we were exempted, we had to stay. So I finished my exams in January and then left in '73 in February to come to U.K. Family had already emigrated from Kenya in '72. Because they were all basically in Kenya. So they were not involved with the Uganda rush so we had an opportunity because, A - father been born in India, he had a British passport and my other brothers were Kenya citizens but as dependence we were all allowed to come to U.K. and settle down, get our stamps to stay and then I went back to complete my studies. So rest of the family was all settled in beginning of '72 and then I joined them in a year later in February '73. So the time we went through at the time of the exodus was very-very onerous because there is a tremendous tension and people were been hijacked from the university but the military force would come in and basically pick up girls and then disappear and they never came back. It was nothing you could do. We had seen lot of bodies and in our university we had six halls of residence, two of them were for the ladies and four were for the gents and they used to walk in and walk out. So although a lot of people were suffering at the time of moving, I feel that the Africans, the local Africans suffered most rather than the Asians and the white community but at all of us were thrown out. Lot of the properties were taken away but as a student I did not have to worry because my roots were obviously in Kenya but you could see when you are traveling. I traveled through bus, I traveled through train and I also flew so I had all those three means of traveling to Nairobi and Draupadi, on each of the events we were been stopped at every ten, fifty yards, hundred yards. So they used to check you up completely. The whole baggage used to be ripped open, clothes thrown apart, they would look at the trousers; they would look at the waist, the shirts and the collars to see whether you are carrying any money. So some people must have been doing those things for them to understand. Cars were ripped off, the tires were opened up to see whether they are carrying any cash and they were ruthless and there was nothing that one could do except just accept what they are saying. So when I had my identity I was allowed to stay but after the exodus especially in November-December things quieted down and although we were frightened to leave our campus, we could walk in to the town without too much aggravation because obviously bulk of the people had left. So once I completed I did not bother to wait for anything, went back to Kenya, packed up my clothes and then flew to U.K. to start a new life. What was it like being in Uganda after everybody had left then even though yeah you were the Ugandan citizen you know, but you are still brown and? It was frightening but the fright, I think it was worst when the exodus, before the exodus took place because everybody was anxious, everybody was worried and they were flocking in. But after the exodus obviously they were very few Asians. We were not been harassed as much but we were frightened to leave the campus because we were safe in the campus, normally used to walk down into the town used to take about ten-fifteen minutes, but there was not enough need, but on certain occasions we needed to just relax out but nobody touched us. So I think there was a tremendous blessing and then obviously when I flew they checked up all the bags and what not, but again I did not have anything to take with me, so I did not have any problems but I saw people who were traveling with me taken in for questioning and then we do not know what happened to them. But you could see certain bodies lying in the river Nile while you are traveling. So yes, it was not very pleasant picture and it is frightening that you had to go through that experience but Sai Baba, in 1968 had actually visited Uganda and Kenya. And it is the first time that he had actually left India and he had told some of the followers in 1968 especially in Uganda to leave and at that time it was a very stable country. Amin was a very, he came in round about seventies and there is a photograph in one of his books in journey to Africa where President Amin is seen with Sai Baba. But little did people know that the history was going to change and I think it was for the betterment. At that time it seemed that we are lost but I feel now that it was a wonderful experience to go through because everybody came with nothing, generally, but they made a fortune. If those same people had stayed in Africa and Uganda only few would have had their properties, rest of them would have still been working in nine to five job. They would have still been renting the properties whereas here majority of the people have got their own properties. Their children have had a better education and they have been more affluent in their lives. So, I think in hindsight it was a blessing. A change was needed to bring an awareness in us and also in the world at large. Because when you are born in the colonial times, the biggest problem is that you had a classism. When the British were ruling Africa we had the whites, the browns and the blacks, which is, what was happening in South Africa? We could not go to those hotels where the whites were staying, the Africans obviously could not get around, we had separate schools and it was all segregated. But after the independence it took time. But it was a beautiful, Kenya was a beautiful country had the politics not come into it, Uganda was an absolute heaven because it is very fertile, it had lot of minerals, life style was good. It was more expensive being in the hinterland. But then when Amin came in it became a maniac. So he became an instrument in changing their lives. So although a few people lost their lives but I think in general, majority of the people who left have actually benefited from the exodus. So I would not say that, yes, it was a very bad experience. At that time it seemed, but now looking at it from a different perspective I feel that, that change was for our betterment. And I am quite happy and all right. Had I been a Uganda refugee, then I would have a tremendous benefits in U.K. Because I was a Kenyan coming from Kenya, there were difficulties. So when I came here, I had an admission at the City University and Strathclyde University to do M. Sc. in Industrial Management. But the laws in UK had changed where unless you are a resident for three years, you could not qualify for a grant for the University and I had just come in and I was a Kenyan not a refugee from Uganda so, I could not get the grant. So I could not study further education and do my M. Sc. So I went from Nonington to London in search for a job. You apply for some managerial positions in Marks and Spencer, and Woolworth's and the Post Office and the excuse was that you are overqualified. You know what was in the graduate as an overqualified for this positions but you cannot prove anything. So I went to London and I went to one of the agencies for a job. At that time 'Guardian Royal Exchange' was an insurance company were offering a clerical job, and I went for an interview. Little knowing that it will become my career and had a chat with the Superintendent there, the Branch Manager and he looked at my C.V. and he said, what do you want to specialize in insurance, and I said what is insurance? Because in Kenya all you could do as a professional was either become a doctor or become an engineer or a solicitor or a pharmacist. These are the only things because nothing else which was of value. So when he talked about insurance my concept of insurance was, a man from Prudential holding a briefcase stepping into the house and forcing and I hated that concept. So, I never liked those insurance people. So when it went into insurance company those were the first impression but then I realized that I could do, I could specialize in insurance by sitting for exams and having a professional diploma called ACII, which is a "Associate of the Chartered Insurance Institute' and there were nine, three hour papers. And then I could use my science, my biological things that I had done. It had a paper in law, a paper in economics, a paper in taxation, a paper in medical underwriting, a paper on geography, math's, and statistics so I had already studied those things and I could utilize what I had studied into insurance. So all of a sudden it opened up a much wider aspect of what insurance was or not just selling with the briefcase but looking into the technicalities. So I worked with the company for one year and realized that the chances of progress were very deem. And then in '74 joined Norwich Union in the city in London, got my family from Nonington, bought a house, got the family settled up. I got married in '74 in November. So life changed dramatically so you had a house, you had a wife, you had a family come through, family means brothers and sisters and again I settled down in London, was involved in my sporting activities playing for various clubs in cricket, playing squash and badminton, doing dramatics for the Bhartiya Vidhya Bhavan there and actually enjoying life while still developing my career in insurance, doing my studies, so I did three-three subjects each year. And in '77 which is three years after I joined Norwich Union expecting my first baby and I was transferred to Leicester as a pension consultant. So I came here for a day, never thought much about Leicester because my impression was just the Belgrave Road and I thought it is not the place I would like to be. I was very well settled in London. Family had come down my brothers, father, mother; they were all there living as a joint family. Spent a day here and the manager took a liking and he says, right I want you under any circumstances, and he rang up the head office and he said, "right I got the right replacement for the job and I want him." And I explained I said, look we have got a joint family so we have to sell our house. We cannot keep our profit, there was a law of the Norwich Union and when they were lending the money, we had to put ninety percent of the profit into the new property. I said, I cannot do that because I cannot sell my property at a profit to my family who are living there, so I do not have money and he got me in mortgage at ninety percent. I passed my ACII. My daughter was born so she brought a lot of luck. And they say that daughter is like Laxmi and it was a fact. Because she came in when she, before she came in, things were all being channeled out. I was well settled in London, I had no intention of moving but while she was been and, my wife was expecting her, I had this offer. Things fell into places. I did not have money. I got a grant, I passed my exams in my chartered insurance, got the best award the highest marks, and started getting, money started flowing in for the deposit for the furniture. And she was born on 21st July, I moved on the 4th July. I bought a property in August and then moved in, you know, my daughter and my wife moved in August. So there was a beginning of my new career having been qualified chartered insurer. Then I was pension consultant and in '79 I became the first colored inspector, the whole of U.K. And the inspector at that time basically meant that you are servicing the brokers, the banks, building societies, the solicitors to promote your company to teach them the technicalities and help them generate more business. Now till '79 there were no ladies or any coloreds who were inspectors. So when I had a chat with my boss and he asked me once what was my intention and I laughed and I said, "Oh! I want to be in your position". And then he laughed, he said "yes, in that case you cannot become an inspector or a manager if you are an administrative staff, but you need to be on the field force, you need to go out to understand the management experience." And he checked up, I was given an area where there was no business for two and a half years. So obviously if I did not succeed the company would not have lost anything and if I succeeded they would get the credit. So, unlike the other inspectors who were working about five six hours a day and spent a lot of time on golfing and they had a steady flow of business. I was working about twelve hours a day because I had to prove the point. I had to develop an area, which had been completely neglected and then again I was a colored. So bulk of there were about 120 agents I had in my area and majority of them were the white community. But I started getting the business because of what I was not because of the company and I was not afraid to work and I did not feel that yes color should be an obstacle. And I got some business from the white community because I was brown so these things work in hindsight they work in a wonderful way and then I left the company in '83 because I realized that my main aim was to become a manager and the way the whole structure was set up, I thought that if I ever became a manager for Norwich Union, very reputed company I will have to wait till retirement. So I made a quick decision and I had my second child in '79. So at that time when I became an inspector there was a further turning point because my second boy was born, so I had a baby and I have a baby girl and a baby boy and then I got this job. So, lot of things were happening in twosomes and threesomes. In '83 packed up the job, gave the company car, free pension scheme, free sickness scheme, cheap mortgage with three thousand pound in the pocket which is my three months expense. I decided to venture on my own. I said I will give it a try for one year. If I do not succeed then I can always join a company because I got a good track record and I would not have a problem in getting a job. So, with God's grace in three months I earned my whole year's salary and this is out of people, I never knew. Because what happens in insurance is that we teach people to obtain prospects. So for example I have sold you a policy and you are happy so right through up and can you give me a list of your friends and your colleagues and so forth and you know it is an expansion. Now all my relatives and friends were already recommended by me to my other broker colleagues because as an inspector I could not sell or earn commission we were on basic salary. So I did not have any prospects as they say but God walks in his own wisdom. I go out on street, I meet people. I said what are you doing, I said, I have just left and started on my own and they wanted me to go home and sold their insurances and it started and I never had to look back. So I worked from the home for one and a half years and then '85 took up a shop on Belgrave Road. And then it expanded further, had more staff bought another property again on Melton Road in '88 when I lost my dad. The business expanded and with the expansion of the business obviously it is a very highly specialized jobs, it became very dogmatic and there was a lot of red tape put up into the insurance market even now. The compliance issue is blown out of proportion that is what I feel. The institutions who are setting up are making money and we have to pay them to act as watchdogs on what we do. But as an independent financial advisor I got a wide range of services that are offered to clients and then in '99, I decided that my existing place was not sufficient, I sold my general business, moved to this current place in Gower Street and then developed it to the way I thought, I needed it. So now looking at the lifestyle, on the life, on the investments, on mortgages, taxation and so forth, and that is the academics my daughter obviously born here, she studied, came out of flying colors in a State School and I had given her a choice that do you want to go in to private education and she says that no dad I do not like private education because I think there is a lot of snobbery but he says if I give you the results are you happy. I said that is fine. So she had a straight A's in her 'O' levels, straight A's in her 'A' levels. She had two in her University, so she graduated in law and she is qualified as a barrister. Currently she has got a tenancy in Bristol and again she is now, she is twenty-six but she is doing wonders creating acquittals out of hopeless cases. My son, who is twenty-four, he graduated in the property management and last December he also qualified as a chartered surveyor. So he is been appointed as an asset manager with a very large firm in London called Brookman Estates, which is the second largest. So again he has got a multi million pound structure to handle. So through education, through putting in the human values that we learned they have been able to stand on their own feet. And I have been able to obviously now both have got their own properties. They just about settled and we still have although, they are all living in different places, we are still very closely connected. But that is mainly on the business side. Okay, yeah. I know now about your business career and your families. But I wanted to go back a little bit to where you first arrived, where you said your family were in no need to and then you moved to London and you moved to Leicester. I want to ask you a bit about, what was the Hindu community like in those areas, both religious wise and also socially. Especially in London, had anything been established yet? Yeah, I spent four years I had spent four years in London from '73 to '77. There were temples mainly in the Southall. The Indian community has been thriving because people had come from Uganda and I believe there were about ninety thousand Asians who had moved over. So there was a very close concentration in London, in Leicester and so forth. The life style of an Asian was obviously because the culture was very strong, we wanted to live together and that is why been a large family, we felt that we grow together, we help each other. It has got its advantages and disadvantages. At that time because you are young you believe that what the religion is teaching us, what the culture is teaching us is correct and anybody who comes in like a woman, wife who comes in she has got to follow those traditions. And whether those traditions served the purpose or not is now debatable. But at that time, twenty years ago when I got married in '74, we loved my wife to wear a saree, and also that when you are in front the of the elder brother or father to put the 'ghoonghat' as we call, that the top of the saree to cover the head. And my wife used to argue, she says why do I need to do that because she was, she had spent some time up here, she was also from Kenya and she had come to U.K. in '68. So she was more anglicized and wonderful person, still may very strong in her cultural values. But she could not understand that when you are in the computing field, it is difficult to wear a saree to work. So why would we insist and we talked about respect and so, but then I said, "look I am a bit old fashioned but it will be a great help, and my dad does not mind, my brother does not mind but I will be very happy if you can do those things", it is a just a small example. And as the years passed you realize that, it is not important you can still respect the elders without putting a top on the head. And he change, now people who do not change are still living in the old days and they are unhappy. But when you start understanding that nothing is constant, nothing remains same, things are changing every second so why should we hold on to concept, which is only a perception from somebody else's point of view because that does not help you to move forward. So gradually over the period the Indian community was thriving, temples were been created and then obviously when I moved to Leicester we had the Sanatan Mandir, there was the only temple and since that time lot of the other temples have sprung up and there are some beautiful temples. Did your family get involved much with any of the temples here in London or in Leicester? Yeah. I think in terms of getting involved, not playing an active part in the running of the temples because we have got a wonderful temple at home. My sister is very religious and we call a soul comes we call 'Mataji' coming in to the body. So it is a very powerful place and when you sit in the temple at home you do not need to go to another place. Because it is got better vibrations and what I think has happened that by having a public temple its become a social place, become a place of worship no doubt, but more importantly people get a chance to come and socialize. They get a chance to identify themselves so whenever there is a religious occasion you come in crowds you know. You bow down, enjoy the prasad, enjoy the ceremonies and then go back. So Hare Krishna temple obviously in Bedford is a classic example, we started with a lot of difficulties and people work together, had a faith in Krishna and developed. Then you had the Swaminarayan temple built up in London and it has become one of the most beautiful temples and it is a highly tourist attraction. So, lot of planning has gone in, other temples are been created all around U.K. and Leicester, I think is I am very fortunate to be in Leicester because it has got a multi-cultural activity. Although I am a Hindu and there are lot of temples from the Jalaram Bapa its a beautiful temple, if you are Jain, if you are a Hindu they have got about three large temples for the Hindus. I believe that we are one. You cannot segregate and the religion, religious leaders should try and educate the new generation that we are one. The segregation is creating a lot of disharmony amongst our religions, because each religion feels that they are more superior and there is only one God. Now, then God has never differentiated in my opinion, and over the years, obviously I have got involved into spirituality, which is I believe different from religions. So I have grown up in to spirituality, I am personally a Reiki master and I also practice healing and I do not charge for healing because I feel that is one way of serving, giving my knowledge that I have learnt to serve the community and God gives everything so I do not need to charge. So I can give my time. So I see people at lunch breaks or in the evenings or the weekends to heal them. Now, sort on another form of healing called vortex healing which goes much deeper. So by using those practices you can put that into your day-to-day life, you can, want that one out. You can develop, become a better human being and you can see life from a much broader spectrum than when you are practicing one particular ritual. So with those interests I also got, have been involved into the cultural activities like serving in the Lions Club; Lions International which has got about 1.4 million members round the world. I was a president of a club then I was in the zone, in the district and gave my time because as a old voluntary organizations and developed a bringing people together, inculcating the human values, you know also involved in the Sai Baba organization because I am a great, I am a Sai devotee and I taught for a couple of years, education in human values to the children. So I have been involved in setting up a school of Sai Baba outside India, in Zambia where you become instrumental and that school has prospered. So you bring those values back home here because this is the home and when you meet people you do not make a judgment. Because when I do not know who I am, what right do I have to make a judgment on somebody else? Now when you are young you are very easy to make a judgment because that is all you have learnt that I am better, I am superior, you are not good because you do not look at things from my point of view. So it is always, my, my, my, is I. So when we start going in to spirituality you rise above this mundane things, these material points of view and you realize that at a higher level at a higher consciousness things are far more superior. So the knowledge starts coming in and through my Reiki, meditation I went in to Kriya yoga as well and I learnt from my Swamiji, Swami Shankarananda who is a direct disciple and Ram Paramahans Yogananda is very well known in the Kriya yoga and he was asked by the master to go to the West to spread the message of Kriya yoga. So my masters are the all brothers as such. And I have been fortunate to learn from these Gurus who highly disciplined and another Guru that I met in '85 was a Swami Satya Mitrananda who was as ex-Shankaracharya. Now as a Shankaracharya you are not allowed to leave India or the, the waters. So he gave up his position to come to Africa in the sixties. He says, I do not need a position to preach because my people cannot come to me, they cannot travel, so I am prepared to go and he says, if this is the position, which is restricting me, I do not need the position. Currently he is a Maha Mangleshwar and he has got a tremendous reputation in India and very knowledgeable but yet very humble. So you learn about being, showing gratitude. We learn the values of politeness, of humility from these masters. And you try and put it that into your day-to-day life, in to the children's so, I got a wonderful temple at home. And I feel that I do not need to go elsewhere. People who have come down here, the sages have been obviously graced the place and they have done the prayers. So, that temple has all of a sudden developed some tremendous vibrations that you can get any of your wishes fulfilled, you can meditate and go in to a state of meditation immediately because of the powerful vibrations. So the need to go to an external of temple does not normally arise but you go there on a cultural basis, maintain the traditions and enjoy and help out. So yes, I am still very much of a Hindu. My children they do not practice the rituals on a day-to-day basis because again I do not think it is important, because if you are a better citizen, if you are a better human being you do not have to do the prayers on a daily basis or do a 'diya' to say that you are Godly. By being a better human being you are still Godly. Nothing these are the revelations, which are coming through and changing in the beliefs to be a better society. So, the, my one of the children practice those things, I think they are better human beings. They do not make opinion on the others. They can mix up with everybody else, they do not segregate saying that rather I only want to be with the all Hindus, or I am brown, I am black, they do not believe in it. And I would not want them to believe in that either because it is a much diversified society and if we believe that we are all one, then why should we have this diversity? And you said that these Holy Men came to visit, did they actually come to your house? Yes. What was that like? All the Swamis; Swami Satya Mitrananda is very well respected, he decided to come to our house what we call a 'Padhramani.' So saint comes in, we get an opportunity to wash their feet and so forth. And then having became a devotee you also agree to come and stay at my house, the following year so, we had a few days and your life changes because when the, the saints bestow their grace on you, lot of things change internally and I think these changes are eminent, so they become instrument and due to our previous births awareness comes as to who will work. And things start changing so over we are running a business, which is a material business, I was bringing healing in to the work, bringing humility in to the work, because end of the day he is just an energy and I never have to look back and Swami Shankarananda, who is my teacher for Kriya Yoga, he came in to U.K., a four years ago. On he has been coming for a long time but I was introduced to him four years ago. It was just about the time when I did my Reiki and my life changed, because a time was right for me to actually experience what Yoga, Kriya Yoga was. He initiated me, became very close and again he stayed at my house, he comes regularly, and I go personally to India, and at the Kumbh Mela we spent three weeks together. And now, what I found that he has asked me to come back to India, to Hrishikesh for a week, where he is going to teach me how to initiate people in to Kriya Yoga and also teach various mantras which I could give to people. Just like a Brahmin, I am a Kshatriya, but I am now being honored by him to go in to this path and he says, "Suresh this is your path." So felt very honored that he finds me capable of running an institution and being of assistance to the mankind. Healing has helped and we have gone on various trips to Egypt, as healers, to open up the energies in the various temples and also worked in the pyramid each time we go. Normally it is twice a year. Where we sit for two-two hours just close to the public, we get an exclusive right to sit in the chamber, in the pyramid to use the powerful energy towards the Middle East and towards the world to bring peace. And over the last two years I have bee doing that, and you can see the big difference that is taking place in the Middle East. So again that knowledge comes through the angels, through the masters from the outer realm when you are ready. So the knowledge comes in and then you are exposed to people become instruments in your lives. So things are working out on a wonderful way. It gives me a lot of insight in to life, which I was unaware before and I can start seeing things as oneness. Now through that oneness have the diversity and therefore I am bit against people who are very strict in their religion. Because it is a belief and that belief does not take them much further. But I think when you become spiritual you can move faster, you can rise to different levels of consciousness much faster because you have nothing to hold and you are opening to receive real knowledge. So when your mind is open to receive only then you can start feeling, you can start sensing, you can start visualizing because that is how the information is passed over to us, and it is beautiful and it gives you a wonderful meaning about life, as to share, to help others who are less fortunate than what you are. And what I know find that the ten years that time we suffered, I use the word "suffering" in to inverted commas by changing in to riches to rags has made me a better person. Because when I see other people who are less fortunate, I develop compassion, I develop gratitude and I would like to assist. I am quite well settled now, but it does not affect me. And I can enjoy my life without being pompous. Because nothing had I, not gone through this procedure of seeing the other side of life, maybe I would have never learnt a lesson, maybe I would have had a lot of ego in me that I am some thing and we realize we are nothing and nothing is ours. And how did you actually get, first get involved with healing and Reiki, because it is quite an unusual field to move in to? Yeah, Draupadi, what I find God has planned up a destiny and when you are ready things start coming to you. I had a book called the 'Autobiography of a Yogi' from Paramahans Yogananda about fifteen years ago. I read it, kept it on my shelf and then four years ago I was initiated in to Kriya Yog through Swami Shankarananda and whose Guru and Paramahans Yogananda are 'bandhus,' are brothers. So at the initiation we were told about Kriya Yoga and he said, it is about 'chakras' and I said, have you read the book of Paramahans Yogananda, 'Autobiography of a Yogi', he talks a lot about what we were going to learn and then I said, yes, I have got the book, I have read it. And I went home, I opened up the middle chapter and right in the middle there is a whole chapter on Kriya Yog. At that time, when I read it did not mean nothing to me, I had a book, I read about it, the, his master's photographs were there. And I took a view and I said, why do I need to know whose Paramahans Yogananda's masters are. It does not really concern me. So you skip those pages not realizing that they will become my masters. So learning just changes, so when I was ready, when I read the book all of sudden it gave a lot of meaning. So you are exposed obviously in '85 I think that is when the real change came in. I was always religious working at home believing in prayers and being kindly, but the real change came in '85 when Swami Satya Mitrananda came into and he was doing an inauguration of Jalaram Bapas statue in Sanatan Mandir in Leicester. I was looking after my kids because they were not feeling well and my wife went to the temple and they did a bid of being the donor of that particular statue and through their grace, we gave the highest bid or she gave the highest bid and Swamiji was bit surprised that normally ladies do not do the bid it is the gents. And who is this lady and people knew who she was, is Suresh's wife and I met my Swamiji. And I had a dream in '79, a vision that I wanted to build in this country Lord Shiva's temple. And I said, I do not want a temple here in the city center, which is very commercial, but I want a temple in a countryside, which has got some spiritual vibrations. It is dedicated to Lord Shiva, so and also with the temple you have a Vedic Library. So people can come and study about the Vedic literature, which is not available in lot of places and if they wanted to do the 'Rudra Abhishek' they do not have a facility. So, that there was the first concept and then I mentioned that to my Swamiji and he said right, because he is a Lord Shiva's devotee as well. As he just find the land and I will help you get the planning etc. So we clicked and this was always my dream and that is one of the reasons that I left my job as well, because as an employee it was very difficult and I said right I want to raise my own funds first. So if I have my trust and I have got my own money so when the time is right I will go to people, they will be able to donate because they have seen that what I have done is without any condition. So there has always been a thought in the mind and gradually it was becoming into a shape. So my involvement with the Satya Mitrananda was along that line and he helped and, you know, he came over he comes in your labs, you start learning about spirituality from him by visiting and then I got in to Kriya Yoga. So in the meantime in '85 again I went to Shirdi Sai Baba then I met Satya Sai Baba and my life changed because of my very first visit, he came down, I have managed to take my letter then he came the following time, managed to touch his feet, had an interview, had a pat on my shoulders and on my head and all of a sudden the whole thing about life was exposed and you start developing that knowledge. And he tests you out, he teaches you simple, simple things to help you understand life better and bringing more humanity, more respect for others and yourself then, I wanted to teach you more values. So what was love, what was peace, what is truth, what is non-violence and all these values, when you bring in your life, you start realizing that the poojas that you do are at a very lower stage. So meditation helps you rise above and at that time we do not need, you need poojas as a starting because it is climbing up the ladder, but as you climb up the ladder these things become obsolete because you do not require it any more and you go into other areas where you can merge into the universe much quickly. So when I took my Kriya Yog within three months a friend of mine was saying that there is a Reiki class and it is a weekend course, so do you want to come? No idea what it was, thought it is a seminar, so right pay hundred quid, we will have twenty, thirty people and I will make some notes and come back with education. When I went there, there was only six of us. And then she explained what Reiki was? Healing. I said, Ah! Interesting. It is a traditional Japanese method but originally emanated from India, from Tibet. So lot of the Sanskrit words which being a Hindu was easier for me to understand and when she initiated me, she says you will be a great healer. So I felt nice because it is ego that somebody is appreciating. But it had a very profound effect and I went to three masters, because obviously I loved my level 1,2 and I found that there was something missing. So I went to another master, in search for more knowledge and the other master taught me the Eastern Lineage, because what there was taught initially was the Western Lineage, which was a short cut. Then I went to the Eastern Lineage, which was more in depth and again as a Hindu origin having learnt something about the Hindu religion, it was easier to understand the Eastern Lineage, but I found that the teacher had ego, had a control. So although we are teaching compassion you cannot let go. So again I felt that very knowledgeable person, very good teacher but not been able to let go, students let go off the control. And I met another lady called Isis in Glastonbury, who became my third master in Reiki and I did the mastership through her and immediately we clicked and she is, "you have been a master in the past life", so those knowledge is came through. And then through her, we went in to the healing trip to Egypt, where again the life was changed, a lot of intuition developed having worked there, you get a perception of your previous lives and knowledge just starts coming in, it just starts flooding in and I took a vortex healing, because then you are drawn to various different tools. So as a light worker these are just tools. So we use those tools to help whoever comes in your life and assist them accordingly. But yeah, and I think this is not the end, lot other things are still going to happen. The changes will be very sudden they will be very fast, because there is a lot of work required to be done in healing. Which is basically changing the consciousness of the people by bringing more love into their lives, to solve the problems of fear, anger, hatred ness, all the so-called sufferings and because, we have chosen and if we can bring love in their lives, which is unconditional positive energy, they will become better because they can see from another perception and they start seeing that love. Life is what you make of it, you can create your tomorrow, it is in your hands and you have the choice. Do you believe in Karma or Reincarnation? I believe in both. Yeah. When I was young I thought everything was in the hands of God. That every step I took, every moment I did was in his hands. And we used to argue about the choices because some people said, oh, you have a choice, I said what choice, I cannot move. You know, gradually I think, what happens by keeping your mind open, you start realizing what really Karma means, because the word Karma is about our actions, our things. But biggest Karma; and there is only one karma, it is the breath, the control of the breath, which is comes back to Kriya. Because that is the only thing that is yours, 'the breath' and when you learn to control your breath, that is your main Karma, and through that main Karma, you are creating the sub Karmas, like thoughts actions and for every action there is a reaction. So when you make a choice through your soul you get a opportunity to experience that particular situation and therefore what I come to believe that there is nothing which is good, there is nothing which is bad, it is all in the mind, it is all about an experience. So we say this is a bad thing or this is a good thing, it is your perception. So every person has got a different perception and now believe that God which is just one energy, super natural energy, he gives the form, the energy can take whatever shape it needs to, and that is what I found through my healing practices that it is all about energy, vibrating at a different higher frequency, and that frequency can take shape that you manifest. So that is why you as an individual are able to manifest what you wish and again through the books through the experiences you come to realize that there is no difference between God and us. And Hindu Sanskruti says, 'Tatvamasi', 'Thou art' that in English. What is 'Thou art' that means? Thou art that you and I are one. So if you and I, which is a God and us, our souls are one then why this separation? Because we are taught in our different religions, that we are separate. As human beings we have come on the earth because we have committed sins, and I am of an opinion now that there is no sin. It is just an experience that you had wished to go through. So at a soul level before you take birth, you decide what you wish to come back to experience and then again through revelations of the previous births, through knowledge that has been revealed, you come to realize that these things exist by talking to the masters in outer realms and their different levels of consciousness that is on a multi-dimension, a human is only aware of three dimensions but more than ten dimensions exist. And it is impossible for the human minds to visualize until you rise above you are ready to receive that frequency. So yes, I believe in Karmas, which are now basically the actions that you are willing to take, when you want to experience a situation. So when you have experienced a situation, you have a choice whether you want to continue or not to continue. And that is defined very loosely as the Karmas. Reincarnation, I think every soul goes through fulfilling what they have come back and I have had a several births previously and I am still learning. So in this particular birth I believe, I become aware of my previous patterns and now I have a choice that in this birth, okay, I want to be a light worker, I want to work through healing, work through my other faculties and assist into better world, play a part, become an instrument in making this world a better place to be in, so all this has started taking place. So in that way when I am developing my own compassion and my gratitude, and my kindness, my unconditional love, I am changing my karmas and we are all capable of changing them or bursting the Karmas in the now. So that is another thing that I have learnt is, living in the now rather than in the yesterday or tomorrow. Again Sai Baba says, that yesterday does not exist, tomorrow does not exist. Eckhart Tolle, which is a Canadian, he has written a book on 'Power of now' and it gives the same thing that everything that is manifested, is manifested in the now. So, when you master the now, when you learn to surrender to the universe in the now and take your guides your angels, who are always happy to help, but they cannot help unless you request. So when they are happy to help you, why do it yourself? So I got a very busy schedule, I get involved in lot of activities. Yet, I managed to do that because they help me out, they sort the things out and I still enjoy and I still remain in the state of bliss most of the times. If things do not work accept it, because that is life and that is what experience is all about. Okay, I just want to ask you now, it is just some general questions, lot of people are always debating and things like that. The youth of today, do you feel that they are now more religious or less religious than say when you were a youth and could you compare, have you been back to India can you compare, maybe the youth from India or from your life growing up in Africa and from here. How things have changed? Very good question but it is a very deep question, because if you look at three basic continents having lived in Africa, having come down to U.K., having spent thirty years here and then you look at India where the original roots are, and obviously having gone several times to India. If I talk in terms of religion, religion has always been very pre-dominant in India, very traditional, but the youth are beginning to question the practices that were being used. In Africa lot of people have migrated, so the youth currently are moving away because obviously life is not as exciting as it used to be, due to the fear, due to the robberies and so forth. So the young generation prefer to move away to Australia, or to Canada, America and to U.K. But there are wonderful temples again in Nairobi. Uganda had some temples but in Nairobi new ones have been built. But not many people are going. They spend fortune in building excellent temples, but not many people are there because they do not see the advantage. Because it is been used as a cultural place, as a tradition that you go to this particular God or you have a Sanatan Mandir or you go to one particular temple for particular deity. So I feel that yes, it is very difficult to comment on the youth in East Africa at this moment. In Zambia, Zimbabwe there are not that many youngsters. Most of them have emigrated because there is not enough scope. And Kenya there are still few youngsters but they are gradually moving away. Now if I look at U.K., we have been very much influenced by the western culture. Lot of Saints are coming over, they are playing their own parts in helping us understand and maintaining Hinduism. But I still feel that the youth do not understand, say again if I look at Hinduism, what Hinduism really means? We have got so much segregation amongst the Hindus. We have got the Gujaratis, we have got the Hindus, we have got the Punjabis, we have got the Sikh, we have got in Gujarati community different sections. Now and in Leicester in the past there was one society. Now, for the Patels we have got another society, for the tailors we got one society, for the Mistrys we got one society, for the Mochis, for the shoe makers we got one society. So every society has started having their own holds, having their own activities and yet so, when you are having a segregation, a separation, I cannot see how we are progressing? Why did they segregate? I think the segregation is coming due to the control. So I am more in to a society, I went into a temple, wanted to be a president and did get along with the other committee members so I said right I am going to resign. I will set up another committee, I will set up another temple, so go to the public get some money, get the position and then develop because I have got a control, I love the chair, very powerful. Then we have societies where all talk together in Luton when my wife came in '68, it was one society and then when they had the Navratris, when they had the Garbas it was only one hold where everyone used to come in. Then we had two holds, the East Africans and the Indian-Indians. So there was a segregation and they started so then from East Africa Indian and from the Indian-Indians, they would not mix, because they could not wipe and East African Asians for they were more superior. Those felt that you know we have been left out and then gradually you had the individual communities. Say Ah! we are growing up, we are big, we want to maintain our own culture. So if we are Patels we go into various towns, because they are known as, you know recognized through various towns. So we must make sure that our generation, our children do not go and mix. So we create our own. So the tailors, the shoemakers; the Mochis, the Mistrys all of them, they decide that "Ah! we want to hold on to ours, so lets have our own cultural societies". So they have their cultural societies, they have their own societies; spend lot of money on having the holds. But the activities that are going ahead to teach human values are not there, they do not conduct classes to maintain the interests of the youth. They have societies but then it is not explained how you are running, I mean we have in our Sammanvay Parivar, where my Swami Satya Mitrananda runs Parivar, is basically a family. And they have set up a youth society, where they meet every week and they learn the rituals, the Sanskrit words and they practice. But learning the Sanskrit words if you do not understand what it means. If you cannot put in to your day-to-day life then is that evolution? And I feel that okay in temples, in the Sanatan Mandir, which is one of the largest temples, there are activities and the Gita is been taught to the youth. How it is been taught? What practice to do? Sai Baba's groups are fairly big and they are working in their own way to inculcate the human values. Setting up schools, serving and I think it is one of the, and Swaminarayan is again a typical thing, where they are spending a lot of time on the youth. And we are talking about the youth, and I would give credit to those organizations because they are feeling that the youth need to be guided and if they are guided in the paths, which are more suitable they would benefit, but what I feel is happening is, they have been taught that only one path is the correct path. If you are a Swaminarayani you do not believe in somebody else, you mix together you become your friends of Swaminarayans, your life is Swaminarayanis, your activities are Swaminarayanis, and nothing else exists outside, fine, if you are happy. But when they are exposed to the outside world, in order to learn you need to diversify. So if you have a narrow approach it may work wonderfully, but I cannot see how those citizens, those individual youths will ever be able to have a wider picture. Maybe that if they do not need it when they are young, but if they maintain a particular culture understand life and they are happy, then once they have grown up then they start learning, perhaps. Same thing with the Hare Krishna movements, we got on a very large scale around the world, we have got a tremendous organization in London, in Watford and in Leicester as well and again when you look at the book, it is all about Krishna Consciousness and we can have scholars, we can say write this nothing else exists but Krishna. Now, who is Krishna? So when we debate and we say right there is one source, one energy. So anybody else who is following something else and another religion does not necessarily be inferior. But it is just reaching a path by different methods. And I feel that an example given by Swami Ram Krishna Paramahans who was a great liberated soul and was a simpleton but he could communicate with mother Kali in Calcutta in a place called Baloremath and he felt that she was life. But he actually practiced each and every religion to understand what God was? Because the Punjabi said that you go to Guru Nanak, the Muslims said that you have Allah, the Christian said there is Christ, the Parsi said there is a Zoroastrian, the Hindu said there is Krishna and so forth. And he actually became a Muslim, a Punjabi, a Sikh to find out what it was? Now, due to his powers of going into meditation Samadhi quickly, he could pick up. Say now, we what took a centuries and each time he became somebody else and he when he experienced God, he came back into the real life and said ah my Krishna, my Ram, my Mahavir is the same. My Guru Nanak, my Christ, my Allah is one. So he actually was a living body and he gave this example saying that, now if you got a roof, top of a roof to reach you got say three basic methods, maybe you can use a rope and have a lasso and go up the rope, or you can put up a ladder and climb up the ladder to go to the roof or you can take the third route, go inside the house, go up the stairs, go in to the attic and reach. Now either of these three methods you can still reach the top. But it is impossible to reach the top by using any two or three methods simultaneously. We cannot and this is what we all seem to be doing. We want to ride on everything, little bit here, little bit here, little bit there and we are no where. But he says if you follow any one path eventually you will reach. So if I was more of an acrobat I might prefer a rope, but if I was bit more cautious I might prefer the route via the stairs or if I was an external person enjoying the outside use a ladder. But each of us will reach now what difference does it make whether one reaches faster or late. This sort of a progresses. So all of us we reach there sooner or later. It is only time and time does not exist in the relative world, it only exists here. So we are too much conditioned by time, we are too much conditioned by tradition and when we rise above those traditions the youths, if they are taught that nothing is wrong how do you start experiencing, how do you start practicing and then using you soul going back in to your heart and taking a step from the heart and encouraging them to experience what they wish to experience. If the parents could teach that if the leaders could teach that, we would have a much better world. But instead what is happening? We are taking each one on to a separate path saying this is the best way or you go in to a particular religion. This is the only way but there is nothing, which is only. So I am looking at a global world where we all join together we practice what we enjoy. But we are open to other methods; we are open to other lives. So that we become better, we become much more educated and I think that is the real education is, understanding life from a different perspective. Okay, you answered a couple of other questions within that answer. Yeah. I want to just ask you now just to stop, finish off the interview, just a couple of final questions. How do you identify yourself now, because you know Indian background, born in Africa, lived in Africa for a substantial part of your life, lived in the U.K. for such a long time and so somebody was to ask you now who are you? What would you, what would you call yourself? I will call myself a human being, just a being rather than anything else. Because that is what we really are, we are beings and human beings. It is in my opinion not fair to say, Oh! I am a British because I got a British, or I am an Indian because I was born as an Indian or although I am living here, I am always going to be traditionalist and fundamentalist in supporting India, to then I am biased. Because I am making an opinion about a country I am not staying in. I do not have much idea about what they go through, so how can I become a loyalist? So, if I stay in this country, this is where I spent bulk of my life, my children are born there, I need to look at how I can help this country? How I can do through integration and help because it is a cosmopolitan country and I think we are very blessed in U.K. specially because it is one of very tolerant society. If you go to Europe, you go to the other parts we soon realize and we go to America that there is no tolerance and you know, whatever problems we may have in U.K. still a very tolerant society. So with that tolerance why cannot we develop our liking to the values and consider as oneness? So, I think we are all one and I like to believe that there is no difference. Color is just what you are born with, but the blood is the same color, the thoughts are the same. So why segregate? So, I would call myself a better human being. Okay, and where would you see as home now then? Home is where I am. Now if the future takes me to another place then that would be my home. Currently this is my home, I am well settled, my children are up here I would like to obviously nurture their children and I can only do that while I am in local vicinity. So, for the time being I do not have any intention of going anywhere else but this is my home. This is where my children have grown up. They will soon get married and they would like me to look after their children. So that I can bring those values as an elder because the current parents who are young parents are not that matured to be able to give values to their children. Because I think when you look at the concept young children are strong enough to produce kids and their job is to have the kids, go out and work and the elder families are there to give their, share their experiences. So if I am in a position if my children would like me to do that, that is what I would love to do and again as I said my ambition has been to build up a Shiva's temple where it will be extend in to all the "Jyotir lings", because currently there are twelve "Jyotir lings" in India. And it is not easy for everybody to visit those twelve. So, in this particular place you will have all the "Jyotir lings" in one place. We will have a Vedic library and then also it will extend into a holistic center. So into a center where people can have all the alternative therapies, they can come for learning, there could be lectures because at present people travel to Wales, they travel to Comber, to Devon to all the other parts Somerset to learn.