ISKCON, Experiences in Glasgow 9th May, 2004 sound Sound Cassette English Oral Interview Interview Abhijeet Joshi 204 Muralidhar Karanam Male Mehboobnagar, Andhra Pradesh

Glasgow U.K. masters degree in Biochemistry, Ph. D from Usmania Medical College EN Telugu, Hindi, English I would just like to start off with little a bit about your family background. If you could tell me where are your parents from? We are basically from Andhra Pradesh state, Hyderabad city. I am born in a Brahmin family, and also married a woman from a Brahmin family. We both are scientists. And so both of your parents are from Hyderabad as well. Yes, actually they are from rural areas but got settled in Hyderabad. Where are they from, what is the names of the towns? The town name is called Mehboobnagar, it is a district, and Taluka Headquarter is Kolhapur. As we started going to higher education so they migrated to Hyderabad and then settled there to give us good education. So where were you born? I am born in Mehboobnagar in Andhra Pradesh state. So is that a town or a village? It's a small town. You were very young when you were there, do you remember it much? Yes, I do remember, I lived there until the age of 17. So you went to college then after that. That's right, yeah. So tell me about little bit about your life and growing up in that town? It's a middle class family. My father is a small term employee with little bit of agricultural land and then he tried to bring us up in a congenial atmosphere and then see that we are all well educated. During this process he underwent lots of problems and then he passed away; both my parents have passed away when we were very young. Then we continued to fulfill their ambitions. So tell me like you know what was your school life like? A very simple life. We go to school and then do our homework and then help our parents in their agriculture and mother and sisters in their house running, household things. It was a very simple life. We didn't have any aspirations; this is a sort of closed family with simple life. Then you went to Hyderabad city then? I started going for higher education. So post graduation is only in Hyderabad city so I had to go to University College there and then I pursued my education there. Did you stay with your family in Hyderabad? No, when I was doing my graduation my both the parents had passed away. So my maternal uncle took us to Hyderabad. He was working for agricultural department so he looked after us. I was staying in his house. What was the change like for you then to go from kind of this rural setting then to go to the big city, what was the difference? It is an unforgettable memory. They are very fast. Having come from rural area I didn't know how the city life would be. I couldn't even understand the way they talk and they behave. It took long time for me to get adjusted to that. Fortunately my maternal uncle's children, they guided me how to behave with people, what sort of things they expect from you, and how to respond when they ask something. Slowly I got accustomed to that and then I achieved really good things in life. How far did you go with your studies then? I have done my masters degree in Biochemistry then did my Ph. D in Usmania Medical College. Yeah then after Ph. D I worked as a Biochemist in a Hospital. Then I was very much interested in Research. So the Andhra Pradesh Government had reduced the retirement age from fifty-eight to fifty-five to save money on experienced people; so experienced people get more salaries so they just want to save, this is a foolish idea. They didn't know that they have to pay more in terms of pensions to all these people but at that moment then they said they were looking at short-term benefits. They didn't think of long-term benefits. So group got disintegrated. Once professor is retired, all other scientists were young scientists they could not stand on their own because there is no guidance. We were all just beginners. We just finished our Ph. D. We were about to settle, at that time professor got retired. So we didn't know what to do. That made me to think of going abroad. Were you married at that point? Yes, I did get married. Yes soon after marriage I started thinking of going abroad because my professor had to retire and then though I had a job that's a routine job of analyzing samples for patients in a Hospital, it was not much encouraging since I had research ideas in mind. At that time lot of scientists were going to States. That was the land of opportunities for scientists. At that particular point of time, Jimmy Carter was the President, the economy was very down, very much down and there was no support to Science and Technology in States even. So when I applied, my professor recommended, and they wanted to have me very much working for their lab but they had no money. They asked me to support myself for six months then they would try something else to give me, to support me. So I thought that I have come from a normal, medium class family so I had no money so they thought that I should go to Saudi Arabia, Gulf countries earn some money, having worked in a hospital side labs so there were plenty of chances, opportunities for me. I thought of going to Saudi Arabia and then from there I would use it as a springboard and then go to the developed countries. But after going there I was stuck because I did very good job. I went to Saudi Arabia, worked for 5 years and they wanted me to retain because I developed the lab and established a good regional research lab and then service center. So they were not willing to lose me so they gave me lot of perks and lured me extra finances and then they tried to retain me for 5 years. Then at that time New Zealand was giving immigration to scientists. So I applied for New Zealand immigration and then migrated to New Zealand. What year did you go to New Zealand? I went to New Zealand in 1995. Can I ask you what it was like living in Saudi Arabia because isn't that mainly a Muslim country. How was it for Hindus to go there? You cannot practice your religion in that country. Everything is prohibited. Only think is you can take things without authorities knowing. When you are passing through airport you can take your pictures without bringing notice to the airport authorities. I have taken Lord Vishnu and Lord Krishna's small pictures, unframed pictures, put them in one of my textbooks and then pass through. Then when I was passing through immigration check one of the airport authorities was checking my textbook and I told him that you won't understand anything this is a medical book. Then he asked me are you working for a hospital I said yes, then he immediately let me out without thoroughly checking my books. So that's how I was able to get my pictures into the country. I placed them in a small cupboard and then used to pray everyday morning and evening. If anyone comes to know that you are practicing your religion, they take it very serious. What would they do? No they warn you first time and if you continue to do that probably they terminate your contract and send you back. It's a totally materialistic country. I did not like that atmosphere you know. Just to go to States, I thought of earning some money to support myself for six months in States, with that intention I lived there but it's a totally material world. People think of making money, making drafts, sending drafts to India and doing shopping and giving gifts to relatives, etc. So it's not a good place for other religious people. When you went to New Zealand then it was very different then I presume? It's very different. That's where my Bhakti took sprout. Actually you know I met one of the ISKCON devotees there. He lend me a book on Prabhupada. It was very touching. Prabhupada's biography. It was very-very touching for me. I wanted to know more about ISKCON. The ISKCON temple is twenty-five miles away from main Auckland City. It's a nice place. Then I was planning to visit this temple but I didn't know how to get there. One day somebody was distributing books in the city center. So he came to me asking me to buy a book. Then I immediately bought and took the details from him then he said if you are willing to come I will take you on Sunday. Then I followed his car and then I found real treasure there. Was your wife living with you there? Yes. Soon after getting married I lived for a year in India and I had a child and then I left my child with my in-laws, they have looked after him like a jewel in the crown Then me and my wife both went to Saudi Arabia. My wife was in service in India but when I wanted to terminate my contract after a year, they said what are your difficulties in Saudi Arabia. Then I told them that my wife is in India, I cannot continue here for long. Then they offered her a job, same status job. So she came by, she came and joined me and we served for five years, our son was living in India, so that was another problem that we could not stay longer in Saudi Arabia. We wanted to reunite with the family and then New Zealand was a best option. So it's on immigration, so you had P.R. status from day one. How long did you stay in New Zealand then? We stayed for five years and then got New Zealand citizenship. It's a nice beautiful small country. Were there any other Hindu community as well? What's the community like there? There is a big Hindu community in New Zealand. But most of them are business people. This is the first time qualified educated people have entered into the country on immigration system. Before that most of the Indians who were living there were mainly businessmen, so they had their own group. But these educated people are not welcomed there. They have their big community established people. They didn't want to have any new friends. So we formed a sort of Indian community, of the new immigrated people and then we had our own religious festivals organized in a Council Hall sort of thing. There is a nice Hindu temple built by Hindu business community. But again it's a nice place, I have nothing to say against this temple, but thing is that we are not assimilated into the community. And this ISKCON temple, the atmosphere is very-very serene and then very humble people, they welcome every individual. Once you go there they ask your details. Next time they remember and they call you with the name, you feel more homely. Why did you decide to move to the U.K.? We never thought that we will leave New Zealand. We bought house, we were living together and boy was in a good school. He got admission in the best school of New Zealand. But we were on soft money, research grants. Being the small country there were not many resources for scientific research. So the funding was sort of problem you know. They wouldn't tell you until the 11th hour whether your contract is going to be renewed for another year or not. So I went through this for three years. In fourth year I didn't want have this stress. So then I thought I would look for jobs. At that time U.K. was doing really very well in terms of Science and Technology encouragement from the Government. I used to see lots of jobs on internet for scientists and I was interested in Gene Therapy for Diabetes. I was working on Diabetes Research. There was an advertisement on internet, I casually sent my application through e-mail. I didn't spend even single penny on it. They were very much interested in me. They asked me whether I can come for interview to U.K. I said I cannot afford plane ticket, if they are willing to pay my expenses. Then I only suggested that if you are really interested you can interview me over phone. And then it was a videoconference phone. University had the facilities. So they interviewed me over phone. We had videoconferencing facility in Auckland but this was not available in Glasgow. So, it was only over phones. They were quite happy to offer me job and then I came. What was it like arriving then in the U.K., had you been here before? Yes. While doing my job in Saudi Arabia, I was very much interested in research. So I did some research from the available clinical material in Saudi Arabia and published some papers, clinical research papers. Based on that U.K. Royal College of Pathology has given me exemption from part 1 MRC part and then to appear for part 2 they told me that I should have experience in the way the European labs are run. So I came here for a training, six months training. I had my training in Institute of Biochemistry, Royal Infirmary Glasgow and then went back to Saudi Arabia. Then when I went back they had promoted me from specialist to consultant level, and then they tried to keep me very happy financially so that I will not leave that place but from the day one I had in my mind to move away from that place. Since they were nice in terms of job so I continued. What were your thoughts of the first time of coming to the U.K.? I had problems initially when I came for first time to have my training, six months training in Glasgow. I knew no one, university had organized an accommodation, which was very far away from the Institute. I use to commute. I mean the language was very new to me. The accent was very different. I had initially bit of trouble getting used to this, but slowly I got over the problems and then concentrated on my training and then the authorities were very much pleased with my performance. When you came back was it the same place? Same place, Glasgow. When I came second time it was known place, so I did not have much difficulty. By that time I had some friends, they are not very close friends but still I knew, I had rough idea about what living in Glasgow was like. Tell me just a little bit about then actually coming and settling then with your family and because it was different coming on your own. Did you come on your own when you were doing research or did you? No, yeah, when I came to do research I came initially by myself. Then my wife joined me a year later. She applied the same way I applied for job and then it was a surprise for me, when she got selected she told me that, "I am coming to Glasgow, I got job too"; so she joined me after a year. From that time we had nice time, our family was together. So we were together in New Zealand but a year I stayed on my own and then they joined me again, so boy got admission in a good school in Glasgow then life was very smooth. For 2 years in Glasgow we were together. Professionally we were very happy, boy was going to school, nice school so. What about the Hindu community their, were you involved much with the Hindu temple in Glasgow at that point or did you go to the ISKCON temple? I had no idea where exactly the ISKCON temple is, so I couldn't meet any ISKCON devotees there in Glasgow. I tried to enquire in Hindu Mandir, but Hindu Mandir people did not give me clear details, address sketch or anything. But every Sunday I used to go to Hindu temple and do some service there, do some Bhajan and come back. But all the time I was thinking of ISKCON temple in Glasgow. But at the fag end of this contract I knew that this is in Bellshill or somewhere near Leshmahagow. Somehow I was able to get the telephone number I called them and they said that we come once a week to the Glasgow main city to perform Bhajans. I went and visited them in Glasgow main city, so from there I got the details and I could visit Leshmahagow temple. Did you come then to Newcastle? I went to Manchester. My wife tried to get a job in Manchester but she couldn't get it, but she got a good job in Bristol so she took that job. So once again we were separated there. So I was in Manchester, boy finished the schooling and then he took admission in University of Manchester. So at least boy and myself were together and visiting my wife on weekends. Would you say, you have come from a religious background and you said that you are from a Brahmin family as well so were you practicing lot of things as well? Yes, from the day one we have been God conscious. My maternal grandfather performs Pooja early in the morning, after Pooja only people can go into their kitchen and start cooking. So day doesn't start without prayer, prayer early in the morning we get up, take bath, and have a prayer, it is cumulative prayer, it's not individual prayer, we all assemble in Pooja room and then have prayer; and then start our duties. That was our disciplined life in village. As we grew older then my maternal grandfather left his body and then slowly this discipline ceased, declined, and then people started behaving on their own as they grew older. But among my family members, I was still interested, and I kept up this tradition. I continued with the same what my maternal grand father taught me. So early in the morning, I don't take anything I until I do my prayer. I continued that by my self. Once in a week I visit temple, sit there, and involve in Bhajan and come back. Even when you were traveling all over the place you carried that tradition on? Yes, everything, even if I am busy with work, I will starve but I will not eat anything without prayer. Do you have a like a family Murti that you worship? We belong to the Vaishnav community but we were told to pray to all these people, each God will give you something, each God is assigned a duty, so he will protect you from this kind of things. So most of it was material sense gratification, the prayers were mainly to achieve material sense gratification, that's what we were told, you should pray to God you get good rank in your exams. So when somebody says that you know, when before exams you all the time think about God, pray to him and ask him that I should get a good grade and come through. We had this, God was center of our life but we were not properly told. But it's mainly Lord Balaji, Venkatesh Balaji. Most of the people in Andhra Pradesh they go to Tirupati and they pray to Lord Venkateshwara. He is our Kuldeva, that means family God. We do pray to other Gods like Rama, Krishna and all other. We know that they are all different avatars of the same God, but Lord Venkateshwara is the main in our part of India. We believe that being the Kalyug, Vishnu is in the form of lord, in this Kalyug and he has come personally to fulfill the desires of human beings you know so, everybody is having strong faith on Lord Balaji. What about family Guru, did you, did your family have a Guru who they followed? No. We had no tradition of having Guru because it's a holy land, everybody prays, every, we don't have any prescribed Guru, I mean, yeah, family hasn't got any Guru. Can you just tell me what are the values and beliefs that you have from your years of practice? Truthful, honest, and straightforwardness helps really. Once you follow that initially you may find some difficulties, but in long run it really helps. Especially in countries where we are living in, that is very essential. In some countries you can't just survive with straightforwardness, truthfulness, and honest, but things are changing now slowly, people are realizing. They may yield temporary benefits, but long run you can't get on with those things, dishonesty and some kind of things. What do you think of karma and reincarnation? Yeah we have been told from our childhood that if you do good Karma you reap good dividends and then you may even get rid off this reincarnation if you are really good. But living in that society which was a bit difficult, at the back of our mind we had this doing good karma will lead you to good life and then yeah we could not practice it hundred percent, but we had a strong belief on it. What you believe happens to you when you die.? My grandfather used to say that, while dying if you think of God you will reach God. So I have personally seen when my grandfather was dying my sister took Tulsi water and poured in his mouth and uttered Rama, Rama, Rama. Actually this is Krishna Tulsi, she should have said Krishna anyway I mean we, we strongly believe that Rama, Krishna all these are one. So if you think of God at the time of death, you go to him that's a strong belief in our family. Do you feel that now that you are more or less religious than when you were younger? I have progressed a lot really. Initially my devotion was to satisfy sense gratification. Now my attitude is totally changed. I don't think of any material life I don't get perturbed. I used to be very anxious and short tempered, very angry. When my desires are not fulfilled I used to get frustrated, out of frustration I used develop anger. I used to loose my temper and I did not know what I am doing. Now I am very much balanced. I don't think of material things too much. Since, I have come to a stage that I have developed confidence that I can survive on this earth without any difficulty, though I don't think of other things now. So in a sense I can say that I am slowly entering into spiritual life, so I don't think of this material world any more. What about the youth of today, especially the Hindu youth, do you feel that they are more or less religious than when you were youth? Yes, I, I am very much concerned about it. It's not that they are very less religious because they are not taught properly. The Indian, Hindu community here they are more involved in earning money, maintaining their status. Their symbol is to have a nice gadgets and nice cars, buildings. They never try to give the spiritual wealth to their children. These children have got lot of doubts about God, most of these are agnostic. They are not atheist but they are agnostic because they are not told properly. There, there is no one to clarify their doubts. They have plenty of doubts when they go to school they meet and come across the children who do not believe God and they get into arguments and they cannot win these argument. So during this time they are very much confused. Parents are doing prayers, those prayers are for material sense gratification and they try to impose those things on children, children try to learn little about it. When they go in to the society they can't convince the society that there is God and what we should do, why should we pray. So they are really confused. They are not really guided properly. So they give up everything and go to pub and then just drink and enjoy. Once they are told what is good, why we do these, explain them they are good. I see quite a few people in Hindu temple these days coming, because people from various parts of India come and preach these things why we should do. They get some idea but problem is that, most of these people who come from India, they can't speak English, this is not in English. Children born here they understand better if these things are explained in English. That leads me on the next question then, do you think it is important then for the youth to learn their mother tongue? Yes, they would understand, most of the youth they understand their mother tongue but they don't speak properly, they don't know how to frame sentences and speak. When parents speak in their own mother tongue they answer in English. But parents cannot convince them to tell these things in English. If they are explaining in English they can reproduce and convince their friends, kith and kin outside. Since parents say something, most of the parents do not have good knowledge about the spiritual world. So with that half knowledge they try to teach something and then that doesn't get into the youth's brain. The caste system, do you think that it's still there both in India and in the U.K.? Do you think that it's, it's a good thing or do you think that it's a bad thing? Caste system is a bad thing really, it's weaning. Even in India nobody is bothered about caste these days. Only in rural areas you see some people, older generation people are still particular, but the younger generation they are not bothered. It's a good thing we need to respect human being as human being not with their caste or anything. In U.K. they are not bothered. How do you identify yourself? We are proud to be Hindus. I don't say that I am Indian or New Zealander though I have taken New Zealand citizenship. I don't call myself, I don't attach myself to any country but I am proud to be a Hindu. Where do you see as home now? Wherever we are, we are happy. Probably at the fag end of our life probably we will go back to India. Do you have any final thought or final message that you will like to give it to people who will be listening in the future? Yes I strongly suggest whatever you do, you put God in the center and then your life will be smooth. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.